| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Bilingual child, what to do and not to do? Thread poster: Johann Audouin
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| Réponse tardive | Jan 4, 2015 |
Hello,
Je vais écrire en français, ce sera plus simple.
Tu te demandes si tu fais "ce qu'il faut".
La première question est celle des objectifs multiples.
Tu peux avoir comme objectif d'avoir une enfant bilingue.... mais ce n'est probablement pas ton seul objectif. Une enfant heureuse - l'un n'empêche évidemment pas l'autre - , une enfant épanouie, une enfant équilibrée, etc. Une enfant avec un bon avenir professionnel (ce qui peut inclure du bilingu... See more Hello,
Je vais écrire en français, ce sera plus simple.
Tu te demandes si tu fais "ce qu'il faut".
La première question est celle des objectifs multiples.
Tu peux avoir comme objectif d'avoir une enfant bilingue.... mais ce n'est probablement pas ton seul objectif. Une enfant heureuse - l'un n'empêche évidemment pas l'autre - , une enfant épanouie, une enfant équilibrée, etc. Une enfant avec un bon avenir professionnel (ce qui peut inclure du bilinguisme, mais n'est pas une nécessité absolue - si ta fille devient experte en mécanique des fluides, il faudra certes qu'elle parle un peu anglais, mais on lui pardonnera son niveau basique et son accent déplorable - ou alors, son entreprise lui paiera des cours. Si elle est une artiste accomplie, il se peut qu'elle n'ait besoin de l'anglais que pour le plaisir ou pour vendre ses œuvres à des touristes. Je pense à ces amis, parents ou connaissances qui avaient par exemple : un laboratoire de chimie au fond du jardin, une salle insonorisée pour piano dans le garage, une salle de montage informatique dans un coin, une chambre qui ressemblait un atelier de luthier, un labo photo, etc.).
Il y a de multiples éléments à prendre en compte.
Les deux que je préfère sont le plaisir à vivre et l'enthousiasme.
L'enthousiasme est l'un des plus grands moteurs d'apprentissage. Largement plus efficace que la contrainte. De l'enthousiasme n'ait la passion, de la passion la compétence et de la compétence le revenu (sous réserve de savoir ne pas travailler trop souvent gratuitement).
Le plaisir à vivre. Vous avez plaisir à lui parler en anglais, et plaisir à parler français entre vous. Pourquoi faire autrement ? Vous l'entraînez dans votre monde et dans votre vie. C'est ça être parents, non ?
La seule raison qui semble pouvoir être prise en compte serait celle des difficultés scolaires mais... d'une part, ces difficultés sont probablement passagères, et d'autre part, si je peux me permettre, il y a bien d'autres problèmes liés à la scolarité en France (selon mes références éducatives, évidemment - voici le lien vers un guide qui a moins d'un an et demi, à destination des personnels enseignants et administratifs des établissements secondaires : http://www.fondation-enfance.org/haut-de-page/actualites/fiche-dune-actualite.html?tx_ttnews[cat]=3&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=391&tx_ttnews[backPid]=7028&cHash=ab7d9cc454. Si en 2014, un guide du ministère a besoin de mentionner des choses comme la discipline positive et la communication non-violente, ou le fait que les sarcasmes ou les moqueries à l'encontre des élèves sont des punitions déguisées qu'il convient de ne pas faire, à moins d'habiter dans un quartier privilégié - non au niveau social, mais au niveau des établissements scolaires alentour -, il y a fort à parier que la question du bilinguisme ne sera pas la seule des difficultés dans l'un des systèmes scolaires considérés par l'ocde - pour ce que ça vaut - comme l'un des plus inégalitaires qui soient parmi les pays riches. Et encore, le guide ministériel est à destination du personnel de l'EN, mais en maternelle et primaire, seul le personnel enseignant dépend du ministère, les autres personnels dépendent des mairies).
À la rigueur, si vous craignez qu'elle n'écoute pas l'enseignant lorsque (si) elle rentre à l'école, vous pouvez toujours l'informer que l'enseignant va lui parler en français, observer aussi comment elle réagit lorsque vos amis français lui parlent : fait-elle comme si elle n'entendait rien ? Ou répond-elle ? Vous pouvez décider de lui parler en français pendant les deux ou trois mois qui précèdent son entrée à l'école. Vous pouvez retarder un peu son entrée à l'école (si toutefois elle va à l'école maternelle, très courant en France, mais non obligatoire - ni l'école ensuite d'ailleurs, seul le respect du droit de l'enfant l'instruction est obligatoire en France - comme dans tous les pays ayant signé la Convention Internationale des Droits de l'Enfant).
Après tout, l'enfant qui n'écoutait pas votre ami enseignant profitait peut-être de son bilinguisme pour faire semblant de ne pas entendre ? Il aurait fallu voir comment elle réagissait lorsque l'on s'adressait à elle en français dans d'autres situations : terrain de jeu, famille, amis, ...
Par rapport à la remarque : "Be consistant" : vous serez forcément cohérent si vous êtes guidés par le plaisir que vous avez à vivre. La cohérence ne peut être considérée qu'à travers le prisme d'une grille d'analyse. Changez de grille d'analyse, et vous aurez un autre avis sur la cohérence. Vous pouvez trouver parfaitement naturel de lui parler anglais maintenant, puis vous passionner pour totalement autre chose plus tard, ou rester sur l'anglais. La grille "objectif bilingue" jugera peut-être un changement de langue incohérent, mais la grille "vivre enthousiaste" la jugera cohérente, et une autre grille aura encore un autre avis. On peut - et c'est certainement déjà le cas - vous conseiller de ne pas lui parler "bébé", ou pas trop. Mais pour le reste.... traducteurs, vous aimez probablement les langues, et à partir de là, il y a fort à parier que vous parlerez à votre enfant avec un niveau de langue correct, quelle que soit la langue dans laquelle vous vous adresserez à elle. Un conseil serait peut-être d'essayer de vous entourer de personnes pour qui vous pouvez être des ressources réciproques (je veux dire par là : réseau amical ou associatif, école ou groupe aux valeurs et objectifs similaires aux vôtres, etc.). Si les enfants vous entendent vous adresser les uns aux autres dans diverses langues, ils baignent dans une atmosphère multilingue (mais si l'on ne parvient pas, à l'endroit où l'on habite, à trouver un groupe multilingue qui nous convienne et qu'à la place, on trouve un autre groupe qui nous convient, cela peut aussi être une bonne chose : partout où les gens sont heureux d'être ensemble, il y a à apprendre). ▲ Collapse
| | | | | My advice--as a multilingual person | Jan 4, 2015 |
speak whatever language feels natural to you--the one in which you would connect the best to your child emotionally. She will not pick up your accent if you speak English with an accent to her--children correct any non-standard phonetics very fast.
Whether she will speak the same quality English as your wife does--who knows. It depends on many factors. She may even reject it completely--later in her life, although with English which is the unofficial lingua franca of the 21c I doub... See more speak whatever language feels natural to you--the one in which you would connect the best to your child emotionally. She will not pick up your accent if you speak English with an accent to her--children correct any non-standard phonetics very fast.
Whether she will speak the same quality English as your wife does--who knows. It depends on many factors. She may even reject it completely--later in her life, although with English which is the unofficial lingua franca of the 21c I doubt she will reject it. If it were another language she might. Children will choose their own language that they want to speak, or languages. Sometimes the language variety they choose to speak may be influenced by what their peers speak-- this is even more common for boys. They pay more attention to how their peers speak--based on what I've seen. It is all caused by their need to belong and identify with a certain group, or fear of being rejected.
[Edited at 2015-01-04 09:23 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Iris Mesko 
Germany
Local time: 05:14
Member (2006)
Slovenian to German
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
Best option would that the Mother speaks English to the baby and you as Father - in French.
But as small children have a stronger bond to the mother she will be better in English first. In French she might pick up just a few words at the beginning. Also it is known that fathers don't have so much patience repeating words and that they do not spend as much time with small babies as mothers do (because they have to work). So you will have a harder job and it will not be easy to get s... See more Best option would that the Mother speaks English to the baby and you as Father - in French.
But as small children have a stronger bond to the mother she will be better in English first. In French she might pick up just a few words at the beginning. Also it is known that fathers don't have so much patience repeating words and that they do not spend as much time with small babies as mothers do (because they have to work). So you will have a harder job and it will not be easy to get same results as in English - at least not in the beginning.
This situation might reverse at the age of 3. That is the time when small girls attach to their fathers and start to discover the world around them.
Until that you have to have a lot of patience and calm. DO NEVER GET ANGRY IF THE CHILD DOES NOT SPEAK FRENCH AS YOU WISH!!!!!
Take it rather as a normal thing and repeat words with a lot of patience!!!
As you live in a French community, the child will sooner or later be also perfect in French DONT WORRY! Just give her time. And if you talk to her French from the beginning she will have a good start to communicate with people living in your area.
Billingual children often have one strong and one weak language. It might also change depending on age and input. There might also be some topics in which she would be better in either language. But you help her much to keep both languages in balance and make it easier for her.
Later it all depends on the school and the peers. Because in school she will learn many new subjects, words etc. (which you normally do not use in daily life at home).
Language learning is linked to emotions. Give her all the best emotions while you speak to her in French.
If you do not feel strong to do that and you can not be consistent - never ever to talk to her in English!!! - than it would be better to let it be and stick to English only.
In this case she will have to learn French when going to the Kindergarden or to school.
THE CHOISE YOU MAKE IS NOT ONLY FOR HER BUT FOR YOU TOO!
Hope I helped you understand the situation.
I have grown up bilingual Slovene - German. And also observed the same process of learning two languages with my nieces growing up.
Make a decision and stick to it.
Wishing you all the best AND HAVE FUN IN THE COMMUNICATION WITH YOUR DAUGTHER!
Iris
P.S. Children have their logic too. My nieces thought, that all older people speak German and all children and younger people speak Slovene.
Your daughter might think that there are two languages existing - the man and the woman language (unless you have visitors which will prove the opposite).
[Bearbeitet am 2015-01-04 11:02 GMT]
[Bearbeitet am 2015-01-04 11:03 GMT]
[Bearbeitet am 2015-01-04 11:08 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 08:44
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | I beg to differ! | Jan 4, 2015 |
Iris Mesko wrote:
Also it is known that fathers don't have so much patience repeating words and that they do not spend as much time with small babies as mothers do (because they have to work).
I spent immense amount of time with my two daughters when they were babies, and I am sure many other fathers too would have done so. I remember talking incessantly to them about all and sundry and pointing things to them and uttering their names, so that their vocabulary would build up. Every night I would make it a point to tell them a story, or read out a book to them. Often, I would compose stories for their sake, some of which were so good that I got them published in children's magazines for the benefit of other children.
If my two daughters speak such good Hindi, the credit is all to me, for my wife always spoke to them in Tamil.
So it is a stereotype that fathers are impatient with their children, or that they can't spent time with their children because they have to work. In my case, both of us, my wife and I, were working while our daughters were growing up, and I can say that I spent as much time with my kids as my wife did, if not more.
I took up freelancing only after my children were older, and curiously, I now find myself more strapped for time than when I was in a full-time job.
[Edited at 2015-01-04 13:55 GMT]
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Iris Mesko
Germany
Local time: 05:14
Member (2006)
Slovenian to German
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
This was only generally speaking (and from my own experience) and I did not want to offend anybody!
Peace!
Iris
[Bearbeitet am 2015-01-04 14:44 GMT]
| | | | Adrian MM. (X)
Local time: 05:14
French to English
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| Watch linguistic blemishes and the child's rebelliousness! | Jan 4, 2015 |
[quote]Johann Audouin wrote:
.......
(no accent in *both languages*, lucky her)
So, basically, my question is should I *absolutely* stick to French with my daughter for these reasons? And maybe other reasons?
It's no accent in *either* language - not both languages, plus should I stick *unfailingly and unstintingly*, rather than 'absolument'.
These blemishes - to wit: slight flaws, suggest you should stick mainly to your native tongue as the tarnish could rub off, but - by all means - switch to English if you don't want anyone else to understand. (In my family it was the other way round: namely, English to French and/or Spanish to stop the ear-wiggers and nosey parkers).
There is also an unspoken assumption that your wife's English is perfect. I pray that is right.
In mulitlingual countries like Switzerland, polyglots with *no* native or 'mother' tongue (like my quadrilingual Swiss secretary) often cannot master one language perfectly. There was always a slight, but perceptible, oddity of non-regional pronunciation, vocab or syntax in every lingo spoken and written.
Also, watch out for the child's rebellion. Many a toddler or child rejects one parent's language and refuses to speak it. If it is a major language taught at school, the child will soon realize that 'it' is on a hiding to nothing.
[Edited at 2015-01-04 16:05 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-01-04 16:06 GMT]
| | | | | Bilingual Language | Jan 5, 2015 |
Hi, I think its sometimes good to learn more languages or have more than one language in the family. However, as for my opinion, English must be the common language as well. Actually, there are many books that you can find online that will help families who are interested to know more about it. I found one upon browsing and you might like it too. It is a handbook for Parents that talks about advice and information regarding bilingual family.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 05:14
French to English
| Want to hear a success story? | Jan 5, 2015 |
My children have grown up in France, with an English mother and Middle Eastern father speaking French together.
We both started out speaking our native langauges to our first born. Then Daddy was hired in a fast-track job and worked late into the evening six days a week and was exhausted on the seventh, so he just didn't have enough interaction time and energy to keep it up when our son started speaking with him in French.
I was very much the at-home mother and so the... See more My children have grown up in France, with an English mother and Middle Eastern father speaking French together.
We both started out speaking our native langauges to our first born. Then Daddy was hired in a fast-track job and worked late into the evening six days a week and was exhausted on the seventh, so he just didn't have enough interaction time and energy to keep it up when our son started speaking with him in French.
I was very much the at-home mother and so the children got lots of English input with me. I spent a small fortune on books and video cassettes in English (this will be easier and cheaper for you now with Internet), took them to see the English side of the family several times a year, cultivated very strong friendships with the native-English mothers of children their age.
Until my daughter started school and learned French, they spoke in English together. I taught them both to read and write in English before they started to do so in French at school. I reasoned that in the UK, children start primary school at five and in France at six, and because of the visual consistency of French (if you see a word, you know how to pronounce it), French people have a lot of difficulty with the sheer zany inconsistency of English, so I wanted them to be exposed to written English before the French mindset took hold. And they were delighted to learn. If they had put up any resistance I would not have forced them.
They went to normal French schools because no way could we afford to send them to bilingual or English-medium schools, and they pretended not to be English so that the English teachers wouldn't pick on them or be harsher when marking their work (my son suffered both until he worked out that it was best to imitate his friends' accents).
My son is now studying in the UK and my daughter is hoping to do a year abroad in an English-speaking country too. My son's English is very good, although it wouldn't meet translation standards (he's not interested anyway). My daughter is not quite as comfortable speaking English, but she could easily make it as an EN-FR translator (and for the moment is not interested either). They both read in English and insist on watching films and TV series in the original language (and Daddy can jolly well read the sub-titles!)
They have both learned a little of their father's language but given the political situation we have only once been able to visit his country of origin.
I feel that I have done my best and that their English is more than good enough for whatever they might want to do in life. And they both speak perfectly fluent French of course, which I'm delighted about too because it's the most beautiful language in the world ▲ Collapse
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| one parent, one language | Jan 5, 2015 |
My wife and I follow the one parent/one language method. Since we met and lived in the US for a time, we still speak english with each other although we now live in her native country Austria. My wife alway speaks German with our son, who is now 3 and I of course speak english with him.
It works pretty well, he is fluent in both languages but German is dominant since he is exposed to it more. We've found some play groups that are conducted in english and oriented toward bilingual c... See more My wife and I follow the one parent/one language method. Since we met and lived in the US for a time, we still speak english with each other although we now live in her native country Austria. My wife alway speaks German with our son, who is now 3 and I of course speak english with him.
It works pretty well, he is fluent in both languages but German is dominant since he is exposed to it more. We've found some play groups that are conducted in english and oriented toward bilingual children, where stories are read and they play games that promote use of the language. This has given him more exposure to english and he really enjoys it.
The problem we have however, is that our son knows that I speak and understand German, and therefore often responds to me in German unless I pretend not to understand him. I often tell him my German ear isn't working and he has to speak in my english ear. I don't know how long that's going to work though
[Edited at 2015-01-05 11:02 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Roy Williams wrote: The problem we have however, is that our son knows that I speak and understand German, and therefore often responds to me in German unless I pretend not to understand him. I often tell him my German ear isn't working and he has to speak in my english ear. I don't know how long that's going to work though [Edited at 2015-01-05 11:02 GMT]
No two kids are identical, but mine too used to ‘shoot back’ in French, when I spoke to him in Spanish (we live in Belgium).
Years passed (he’s now 8) and despite the fact that all his friends are French speaking, he is attending French/English school and almost everything here in Brussels is in French, we naturally speak in Spanish with each other. We only speak in French if his French speaking buddies are around, but that’s just a few phrases.
Now, that did not come at no cost. He consistently follows Spanish school text books at home, watches Spanish cartoons, reads Spanish tales, etc.
My guess is that French will end up being his dominant language. However, I cannot imagine speaking with my kid in any other language than Spanish, no matter where we live (this comes naturally). And I am getting more and more surprised day by day. I have never formally taught him subjunctive mode, conditionals and other similar grammatical ‘pains’. Yet he makes no mistakes. No idea how he picks it up.
[Edited at 2015-01-05 12:09 GMT]
| | | | | Roy - don't panic! | Jan 5, 2015 |
Roy Williams wrote:
The problem we have however, is that our son knows that I speak and understand German, and therefore often responds to me in German unless I pretend not to understand him.
[Edited at 2015-01-05 11:02 GMT]
My children do the same, but I have always felt that insisting that they speak English (I'm British and we live in France with their French father) was likely to be counter-productive and actually hamper free expression, however much it might reassure that parent and give them an opportunity to - gently, from time to time - correct persistent mistakes. Being very comfortable in French myself, I do however have to be very vigilant in order not to reply in French!
My girls - now 12 and 14 - speak "franglais" only with me; not all the time by any means, but in moments of emotional intensity: in particular when either very relaxed - in intimate moments - or when angry, and I just think of it as another, rather wonderful, string to their linguistic bow. By the way, my parents, with whom they spend a lot of time (in England), also speak very good French but my children only ever use English with them.
| | | | | just be careful... | Jan 5, 2015 |
make sure, whatever you do, that they are proficient at least in one language. What I mean by this is that they can write properly and correctly in one language, preferably the dominant one, the one they use at school... I know many bilinguals that can't write properly in either language... especially in the weak one, in which they never had proper schooling or education, only the spoken form...
[Edited at 2015-01-05 13:14 GMT]
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Johann Audouin
France
Local time: 05:14
English to French
TOPIC STARTER | Many thanks ! | Jan 5, 2015 |
Thanks for your help. I have been reading your answers very carefully and discuss it a lot with my wife and we both think this is very helpful.
We will make sure our daughter can write and read in both languages. As my wife and I both are translators, we are well aware that correct grammar and spelling is important. We already have a lot of English books (Harry Potter, Roald Dahl, etc.) so I am fairly sure than when she starts enjoying reading, she will read in English, which should... See more Thanks for your help. I have been reading your answers very carefully and discuss it a lot with my wife and we both think this is very helpful.
We will make sure our daughter can write and read in both languages. As my wife and I both are translators, we are well aware that correct grammar and spelling is important. We already have a lot of English books (Harry Potter, Roald Dahl, etc.) so I am fairly sure than when she starts enjoying reading, she will read in English, which should reinforce her a weaker language. On top of that, we both work from home and therefore spend quite a lot of time with her (much more than if we had to go to work 8 hours a day).
The last thing I am slightly worried about now is that I might want to switch to French in very specific situations. For example, when helping her with homework, explaining French grammar in English is very likely to confuse her.
@ Balasubramaniam : Feel free to share a link towards your children stories, I would be very interested to read them to my daughter ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 11:14
Chinese to English
| Book recommendations | Jan 5, 2015 |
You mentioned a couple of authors there, so I thought I'd just chip in with some recommendations. It feels to me like it's been a bit of a golden age for British books for infants - I've been spoiled for choice with really excellent books for very young children.
The genius category: Emily Gravett (start with Apple Pear Orange Bear, amazing book!) and Julia Donaldson. Also writing lovely stuff is Oliver Jeffers. And Michael Rosen is a constant fount of brilliant poetry and stories, some of... See more You mentioned a couple of authors there, so I thought I'd just chip in with some recommendations. It feels to me like it's been a bit of a golden age for British books for infants - I've been spoiled for choice with really excellent books for very young children.
The genius category: Emily Gravett (start with Apple Pear Orange Bear, amazing book!) and Julia Donaldson. Also writing lovely stuff is Oliver Jeffers. And Michael Rosen is a constant fount of brilliant poetry and stories, some of them appropriate for the very young child.
None of this is to disparage earlier great books (Wild Things! Hungry Caterpillar! Meg & Mog! Zagazoo!), but I think the 21st century has been really special.
Edit:
French books - we have a very good one by Mario Ramos called Au Lit Petit Monstre, and I quite like the Imagidoux.
[Edited at 2015-01-06 00:55 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Johann Audouin
France
Local time: 05:14
English to French
TOPIC STARTER | I meant books about bilingualism | Jan 5, 2015 |
Wild Things and the Hungry Caterpillar already are on the bookshelves, I'll have a look at the other ones you mentioned. I also got Gruffallo books but these are mainly for my own entertainment...
If some of you can think of French children books, I'll be more than happy to take your opinion into consideration. Apart from the usual Grimm and Perrault Fairy Tales, I can't really think of anything.
Also, when I asked for books, I was mainly thinking about "Educate bilingu... See more Wild Things and the Hungry Caterpillar already are on the bookshelves, I'll have a look at the other ones you mentioned. I also got Gruffallo books but these are mainly for my own entertainment...
If some of you can think of French children books, I'll be more than happy to take your opinion into consideration. Apart from the usual Grimm and Perrault Fairy Tales, I can't really think of anything.
Also, when I asked for books, I was mainly thinking about "Educate bilingual children for dummies" or something like that. I looked for some on Amazon but I did not really find anything that sounded exactly like what I want. ▲ Collapse
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