| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Off topic: Translating or changing spelling of first names Thread poster: ca.services
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ca.services 
Local time: 11:51
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Administrative reasons | Nov 25, 2009 |
Absolutely, I agree, that no change should be made, mainly for administrative reasons. I've heard several stories, especially in France about problems due to a mistake (or change) in a name. In France obtaining a certificate of nationality is quite a mission. Yes, Sonja has a French passport, so all the more a reason to make absolutely no change.
The teacher is retiring next year, so I just mentioned it to her in a nice way, for her information. But she should be used to foreign nam... See more Absolutely, I agree, that no change should be made, mainly for administrative reasons. I've heard several stories, especially in France about problems due to a mistake (or change) in a name. In France obtaining a certificate of nationality is quite a mission. Yes, Sonja has a French passport, so all the more a reason to make absolutely no change.
The teacher is retiring next year, so I just mentioned it to her in a nice way, for her information. But she should be used to foreign names, since there are at least 10 kids of foreign origin in her class. She didn't ask them to write their names correctly because there is no French equivalent.
So all is well. Thanks again everybody. ▲ Collapse
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Well, my daughter's name has caused a similar problem here, but in a kind of opposite way...
Her name is Nadia, but in Finland this name normally spelled 'Nadja' - a spelling which might, on the other hand, cause pronunciation problems for non-Finns, due to the 'j' sound, just like in the case of Sonja. So, I'm used to it that nearly everybody spells it 'Nadja', if they only hear the name. She started school this year, and all the school staff seems to have problems with her name, a... See more Well, my daughter's name has caused a similar problem here, but in a kind of opposite way...
Her name is Nadia, but in Finland this name normally spelled 'Nadja' - a spelling which might, on the other hand, cause pronunciation problems for non-Finns, due to the 'j' sound, just like in the case of Sonja. So, I'm used to it that nearly everybody spells it 'Nadja', if they only hear the name. She started school this year, and all the school staff seems to have problems with her name, as they pronounce it 'Naadia' or something, for some strange reason... I've corrected her class teacher, with the result that now he pronounces it right, but writes it 'Nadja'. Oh well... I really don't know how her name can be SO difficult for Finns, as there are indeed nowadays immigrant children etc. here, yet their names don't seem to cause such problems... It's not a big deal, I just find it a bit hard to understand.
[Edited at 2009-12-05 10:23 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 11:51
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| She should change her name | Dec 5, 2009 |
ca.services wrote:
My daughter's name is Sonja, spellt with a "j" due to my german origins. She goes to school in France. The "j" changes the pronounciation of her name. Her French teacher has asked her to write her name properly and she was quite upset, since her name is spellt with a "j".
Unless the teacher genuinely thought that Sonja was making a mistake, I think the teacher is insensitive and should respect the fact that parents often give their children weird names or ordinary names spelled in weird ways.
Still, this problem is likely to continue for Sonja throughout her school years, and it may be better for her to choose a different name for herself, or to allow her name to be pronounced in a different way to facilitate correct spelling. When I was at school, children had no objection to being called something different, and sometimes even encouraged it themselves.
When I was on working holiday in the United Kingdom, I often met fellow-South Africans who gave themselves names that sounded like local names because the locals were unable to pronounce their real names correctly. A friend named Jako (pronounced yaa-koo) had his name changed to Jacko (pronounced djak-oh), which would not have been recognised by his mother, but it made it possible for the locals to recognise his name and connect it to him, when they saw it in print.
I myself change both my name and my surname's pronunciation when I'm in the Netherlands (where my wife and children live), because I want people to recognise it when they see it written down.
In South Africa, my children's names would be regarded as "English-sounding" and there would be little difficulty in writing it down correctly. But in the Netherlands my daughter Norah has her name written as "Nora" (and many people ask me how they should pronounce the "h" when they see it), and my son Finn has his name written as "Fin" (but only one or two people actually say it with a long "n" sound, as if the second "n" is there for a reason). It is unlikely that anyone in South Africa would write "Nora" and "Fin" if they hear the names out loud, and no-one in his right mind would ask how the pronounce the "h" or try to pronounce "nn".
How common is it for children to have more than one first name, so that they can choose which one to use? Both my children have two names each, and we encourage them to experiment with abbreviated forms or combinations.
| | | | | Three separate issues | Dec 5, 2009 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Still, this problem is likely to continue for Sonja throughout her school years, and it may be better for her to choose a different name for herself, or to allow her name to be pronounced in a different way to facilitate correct spelling. When I was at school, children had no objection to being called something different, and sometimes even encouraged it themselves.
I believe there are three separate issues here:
1st one: Choose a different name.- For me, the answer to this option is "no way, José". When I emigrated to the US, the American "system" tried to get rid of my second name, which they called middle, and of my family name, to assign me my husband's family name, because "that is the norm" in the US. I absolutely refused, and I will keep refusing until the day I die. Contrary to what many people might believe, I think there is much more to a name than just a name.
2nd: To allow her name to be pronounced differently.- I believe we have no choice on this one, people speak different languages, have different accents, and thus will pronounce names differently. If it is verbal communication, I do not mind if I am called, for example, "Anne", "Ann", Annie", "Ana", "Anita". Even though there are some people who hate diminutives and thus, I believe people should not use a diminutive when speaking to them, if the person has made that clear.
3rd: The written name.- This is a totally different matter from the way the name is pronounced. As names are written in multiple "official" documents, from grades transcripts to passports, to credit cards, to wills and property deeds, in this case, I would also make no concessions at all. It has to be written the same way it was written in the birth certificate (unless, of course, the person decided to change his/her name afterward) to avoid legal/administrative problems.
[Edited at 2009-12-05 13:01 GMT]
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 11:51
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Aguas de Marco wrote:
1st one: Choose a different name.- For me, the answer to this option is "no way, José". When I emigrated to the US, the American "system" tried to get rid of my second name, which they called middle, and of my family name, to assign me my husband's family name, because "that is the norm" in the US. I absolutely refused, and I will keep refusing until the day I die. Contrary to what many people might believe, I think there is much more to a name than just a name.
You're talking about your official name being changed. I'm not talking about that. I'm not suggesting that Sonja changes her official name. Changing one's official name to suit someone else should not be done lightly.
My mother had to change her official name before she could marry my dad, because my dad's mother believed that my mother's name was objectionable (it looked too "English", and the war with England was still ons people's minds) and she would not give her blessing to the marriage unless my mother changed one letter in her name. Currently, my mother is not called by her old or her new name, but by a shortened version of both, and only old school friends still use her old name.
2nd: To allow her name to be pronounced differently.- I believe we have no choice on this one, people speak different languages, have different accents, and thus will pronounce names differently.
I wonder if Sonja would object to being called Sonja in the way the French pronounce it. If Sonja and her parents would make peace with the French pronunciation (which to my untrained ear sounds Japanese), it would really help.
I knew a Greek guy whose name was Xavier (pronounced chah-feer) who missed a flight in France because he did not respond to being called "zah-vee-hair", and nearly missed another one in the US because he did not respond to being called "zay-vee-hur" either. If Xavier had lived in France or the US, I would have suggested to him to adopt the French or American pronunciation anyway, just to make his own life simpler (and miss fewer flights).
3rd: The written name.- This is a totally different matter from the way the name is pronounced. As names are written in multiple "official" documents, from grades transcripts to passports, to credit cards, to wills and property deeds, in this case, I would also make no concessions at all.
Both my children have two names, but when they hang up their coats on the pegs at school, only their first names are written there. And when they get a report card from school, again only the first name (and surname) is written there, despite it being known to all the teachers that they both have two names. This does not bother me -- in fact, when I was a child I remember how we teased the other children when their second names were used by careless or insensitive teachers. And it is common in my own country to abbreviate the names of children if they have particularly long names or uncommon names, and use this name in correspondence etc. A boy named Alfrederikus would be called Frik or Dirk, and a girl named Ossewania might be called Wendy or Nika, and this would be written everywhere except where the official official name is required. A boy in my country with the misfortune of being named Pierre might prefer to be called Pieter or Piet by his friends and colleagues, because Pierre sounds like the name of a fruit that is sometimes associated with flatulence.
The name "Sonja" is nice and short but I think the same principles apply.
It has to be written the same way it was written in the birth certificate (unless, of course, the person decided to change his/her name afterward) to avoid legal/administrative problems.
I don't think so. If your real name is e.g. Gottlieb Antonius Smith but your friends and colleagues call you Anton (and that is how you answer the phone as well), and you apply for a job, you can sign the letter as Anton Smith with a clear conscience, and your résumé can be called "Résumé of Anton Smith" without worrying that your application might be rejected because you did not use your full name. And when a police officer asks you for your name, you might say "Anton Smith" before producing your ID card where your official full name is written.
Or does it work differently in your country? If you don't like your name, or if it causes you trouble, you should change it (informally) without having to change it officially.
| | | | Trisha F
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:51
English to Spanish
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| What's in a name? | Dec 5, 2009 |
I am somewhat surprised to learn that the teacher finds it hard to adapt to a simple change in spelling when there must be many other children with foreign names in the school.
I grew up in a small-city which is far from cosmopolitan. However, there is an increasing number of people who pick English names for their children (they often take them from films or TV shows) and actually misspell them sometimes but teachers don't usually make a fuss about that down there and tend to adapt... See more I am somewhat surprised to learn that the teacher finds it hard to adapt to a simple change in spelling when there must be many other children with foreign names in the school.
I grew up in a small-city which is far from cosmopolitan. However, there is an increasing number of people who pick English names for their children (they often take them from films or TV shows) and actually misspell them sometimes but teachers don't usually make a fuss about that down there and tend to adapt to different spellings. Some children may be taunted by their peers but it's not always that bad, it depends on the name of course! I love Romanian names myself but I would be very cautious if I had a child and happened to live in my old home town.
My name is very international so I don't really have problems abroad, I just pronounce it differently depending on the country. I must say nonetheless that I have only travelled around Western countries so far so I don't know what would happen if I went to Thailand, for example.
Like most Spanish speakers, I have two surnames. I drop the second one for practical reasons when I'm booking hotel rooms or train tickets but I use both my surnames for official paperwork. I pronounce both my name and my surname the way English people do, I feel a little strange but it saves everyone a lot of trouble and confusion! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It goes beyond the "offficial" name. | Dec 5, 2009 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Aguas de Marco wrote:
1st one: Choose a different name.- For me, the answer to this option is "no way, José". When I emigrated to the US, the American "system" tried to get rid of my second name, which they called middle, and of my family name, to assign me my husband's family name, because "that is the norm" in the US. I absolutely refused, and I will keep refusing until the day I die. Contrary to what many people might believe, I think there is much more to a name than just a name. You're talking about your official name being changed.
No, I am not. I am talking about a persons name, period. If I have always been known as Jane Marie Doe, and I call myself Jane Marie Doe, I do not want anybody calling me Marie Doe, or Joan Doe or Ms. Jane Smith (because I married John Smith), and much less Ms. John Smith. The name that one has used all his/her life is an integral part of each person character, and only he/she should decide if he/she wants to have it changed, and certainly not due to outside pressures.
If your real name is e.g. Gottlieb Antonius Smith but your friends and colleagues call you Anton (and that is how you answer the phone as well), and you apply for a job, you can sign the letter as Anton Smith with a clear conscience, and your résumé can be called "Résumé of Anton Smith" without worrying that your application might be rejected because you did not use your full name. And when a police officer asks you for your name, you might say "Anton Smith" before producing your ID card where your official full name is written.
Or does it work differently in your country? If you don't like your name, or if it causes you trouble, you should change it (informally) without having to change it officially.
Sure, you can use the name you like, but it should be up to YOU, not to others, to decide that. I certainly do not think that because a teacher does not know how to spell your name, or because your name does not sound French enough, or Italian enough, or Chinese enough, you should change your name just to "avoid problems".
In a nutshell, the name belongs to his/her owner, and only he/she can decide what to do with it, and the rest of the world should respect that decision. An elemental right, IMHO.
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