| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Translating from languages of which you have only a passive knowledge/understanding Thread poster: Jon O (X)
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JackieMcC
Local time: 06:19
French to English
| Degree level and beyond ... | Dec 5, 2007 |
liz askew wrote:
I wouldn't dream of translating from a "passive knowledge" position; I think it is unprofessional to do so, and could even be downright dangerous. Anybody who does not know or has not studied a language and its complexities, to at least Degree level and beyond/or equivalent, should not be translating.
Liz Askew
I, too, totally agree with Liz. I would go further and say that a translator should also live or have lived in the country of their source language - and not just for a couple of months, for two or three years at the very least.
When proofreading it is easy to spot translators who haven't done this, as even if their specialist terminology etc. is excellent they tend to occasionally misunderstand certain expressions or miss the point slightly.
Of course, the other side of the coin is that it is easy to let your command of your source language slip a bit when you don't live in the source language country - I look on it as a constant balancing act!
Jackie
| | | | Irene N
United States
Local time: 23:19
English to Russian
+ ...
JackieMcC wrote:
I would go further and say that a translator should also live or have lived in the country of their source language
Jackie
Hi Jackie
Absolutely, when they serve various industrial/commercial/social sectors. Yet I beg to differ specifically in defense of literary translators - with this approach the majority of the citizens of the former USSR/Eastern block would have been deprived of a huge chunk of the world literature.
However, after living in the States for nearly 20 years I can say that Russian (Soviet, if you wish) literary translation school is one of the best, if not THE best. So far I have not read a single translation of Russian classics (granted, I didn't do any serious studies) that would be fully satisfactory to me yet in comparing English originals with Russian translations I dare to say that O'Henry, for example, reads even better in Russian. I keep exclaiming Brilliant, Unbelievable, I envy those translators. Nobody could travel free in Soviet times:-)
Irene
| | | | Margreet Logmans (X) 
Netherlands
Local time: 06:19
English to Dutch
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| That would clean out the market.... | Dec 5, 2007 |
JackieMcC wrote:
I, too, totally agree with Liz. I would go further and say that a translator should also live or have lived in the country of their source language - and not just for a couple of months, for two or three years at the very least.
Jackie
That would clean out the market, wouldn't it?
Personally, I don't think that's realistic.
Talent and a feeling for the languages you're working with are part of the equation too. Everybody is entitled to their own choices; personally, I think it's not a good thing to use degrees and living circumstances (past or present) as a means of weeding out the bad ones. It's far too general.
But that was not the scope of this topic. This is about passive knowledge. I totally agree with Parrot:
If "passive" means fluent reading and/or listening and having to jog one's brain in a foreign country to speak, then I think many translators are in that position.
It can also mean that a non-native language that was once active has lapsed into non-speaking status due to long absence. (Non-native languages can switch back and forth from passive to active, depending on circumstances and frequency of use. This is a process that takes years and even decades).
Both are the kind of passive knowledge one can translate from. However, if lack of speaking skills arises from, say, an insufficient learner's level, that's another thing altogether.
The AIIC has an A-B-C system whereby A is maternal/native, B is a second/active language and C is a second (or third) passive language. If you look at their directory, you'll see some of the best names in the business doing C to A.
Being professional includes assessing the quality of your own work with a certain realism.
To me, this topic is about: how do you assess the quality of a translation if the source language is not an active language?
Which is why I differentiate between my various passive languages. If I cannot be sure that I understand the source text correctly and completely, and if I cannot easily read the source text because I have to look up every other word, then I don't translate from it. I need to make sure I know what I'm doing.
But the same is true for subject matter. There are words I don't even know in my native language, even though I've basically lived in this country all my life. Can you not translate legal texts if you haven't been a lawyer? Not translate food labels unless you're a chef?
This is a slippery slope....
| | | | JackieMcC
Local time: 06:19
French to English
... no, I don't think I'm being unrealistic. Although reading over my post I would probably now say "...should ideally live or have lived in the country of their source language".
There are clear exceptions - such as the countries Irene mentioned.
I also agree we are getting off the original topic, as the original post referred to a short section in a passive source language embedded in a longer document in another language. This is a different situation from someone habitual... See more ... no, I don't think I'm being unrealistic. Although reading over my post I would probably now say "...should ideally live or have lived in the country of their source language".
There are clear exceptions - such as the countries Irene mentioned.
I also agree we are getting off the original topic, as the original post referred to a short section in a passive source language embedded in a longer document in another language. This is a different situation from someone habitually translating from a passive language.
This may make me unpopular, but I think you cannot properly know and understand a language, culture and way of thinking unless you spend some time in the country. A translator who hasn't done this can still produce good work, but at some point the lack of intimate, active knowledge will become apparent.
Jackie ▲ Collapse
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Margreet Logmans (X)
Netherlands
Local time: 06:19
English to Dutch
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| @ Jackie (and a little off topic) | Dec 5, 2007 |
Hello Jackie,
yes, when you say 'ideally', I agree.
Personally, I try to keep in touch with my working languages through radio, TV, newspapers, books and magazines. I also have relatives with whom I have conversations in these languages. But I'd love to spend a few years in the countries where these languages are spoken. My personal circumstances don't allow it, unfortunately (husband & kids).
I don't think you're unpopular, I just think there are a lot o... See more Hello Jackie,
yes, when you say 'ideally', I agree.
Personally, I try to keep in touch with my working languages through radio, TV, newspapers, books and magazines. I also have relatives with whom I have conversations in these languages. But I'd love to spend a few years in the countries where these languages are spoken. My personal circumstances don't allow it, unfortunately (husband & kids).
I don't think you're unpopular, I just think there are a lot of translators in a position similar to mine. Especially with a language for which there are few translators, I think there is little choice but to accept that these translators cannot meet 'ideal' requirements.
The trouble with passive languages, in my experience, is that I am less confident in writing and, when translating, I cannot always identify typo's or abbreviations. Or jokes... Thankfully, I usually translate serious texts. I'm not afraid to ask a native speaker for clarification when needed.
Again, what it all comes down to, is how to define 'active' or 'passive'. I think a language is an active language if one can read, write, hear and speak the language with a certain confidence and relative ease in various situations, and if one does so on a regular basis. But I'd like to see other people's definitions.
As for Jon O's example, I'm not sure there is any institution that offers degrees in translation for Frisian, so that is an exceptional situation in itself, I think. I suppose his client has been lucky to find a translator with the ability to read Frisian, to a certain degree. I couldn't do it, even though I've spent lots of summer holidays in the province of Friesland. But that was ages ago, I was a little kid back then.
Please accept my apologies if I have written anything that could be perceived as hostile to you personally, I did not intend to.
Margreet ▲ Collapse
| | | | | That's the point | Dec 5, 2007 |
Margreet Logmans wrote:
Which is why I differentiate between my various passive languages. If I cannot be sure that I understand the source text correctly and completely, and if I cannot easily read the source text because I have to look up every other word, then I don't translate from it. I need to make sure I know what I'm doing.
But the same is true for subject matter. There are words I don't even know in my native language, even though I've basically lived in this country all my life. Can you not translate legal texts if you haven't been a lawyer? Not translate food labels unless you're a chef?
This is a slippery slope....
I totally agree. I would never translate a poem or a novel from any of my passive languages. The question is: would I do it from English or German which I consider my active languages?
And as for living or having lived in the country where your source language is spoken, it is definitely an advantage, but I still think that it is the target language and the topic you have to have a perfect knowledge of.
Pavel
| | | | | It depends ... | Dec 6, 2007 |
While I would NEVER defend translating from a language you do not understand sufficiently, in the real world, it is sometimes a question of finding a person who can produce any kind of translation at all.
People like my father did the research and wrote the books used at universities. He worked with several Indian languages that he did not speak himself, and the job is never ending, because languages change and develop all the time. He still speaks Marathi fluently (at 86) - but is ... See more While I would NEVER defend translating from a language you do not understand sufficiently, in the real world, it is sometimes a question of finding a person who can produce any kind of translation at all.
People like my father did the research and wrote the books used at universities. He worked with several Indian languages that he did not speak himself, and the job is never ending, because languages change and develop all the time. He still speaks Marathi fluently (at 86) - but is well aware that he sounds old-fashioned!
A qualified translator can always study a new language, or carry out new research (or new to him/her, based on other people's groundwork), with the intention of learning to translate as fast as possible, if that is what is needed. You do not always need a university and an exam to prove it. What is most important is the study, not the diploma.
When I learnt French the teachers avoided translation for years. The idea was to read and listen to French, learn about France, and to speak and write French. English was kept as far as possible in the background. I have never really learnt to translate from French, even at university - it was not the objective of the course!
When you translate, you keep both languages language firmly in the foreground. It is a completely different process from speaking, and should be taught by different methods.
I learnt to translate German into English practically from the start. The teaching for my translation diploma treated Danish and English the same way. It was a completely different approach from the earlier courses when I learnt to speak Danish for general everyday use.
The result of translation training may be a passive language, if time is not spent working up the active skills.
My clients and their clients or customers include native speakers of both or all the languages and are satisfied with the work I deliver. I am not a unique case. It is definitely possible to produce a professional translation from a language you do not speak fluently. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Perhaps it depends on the level of passive knowledge | Dec 7, 2007 |
I am just trying to start out as a freelance translator, with an MA in Applied Linguistics under my belt and having passed Papers 2 and 3 of the Diploma in Translation. In January I am sitting Paper 1, and I very much hope to pass it too to get the full Diploma.
I think it may be possible to produce good translations with a good level of passive knowledge for certain types of text. It would probably be more difficult to achieve with a source text that includes a lot of contemporary ... See more I am just trying to start out as a freelance translator, with an MA in Applied Linguistics under my belt and having passed Papers 2 and 3 of the Diploma in Translation. In January I am sitting Paper 1, and I very much hope to pass it too to get the full Diploma.
I think it may be possible to produce good translations with a good level of passive knowledge for certain types of text. It would probably be more difficult to achieve with a source text that includes a lot of contemporary slang.
As a native German I have lived on the English south coast for a good ten years, and having mingled in a lot of different social situations I picked up a great deal of colloquial and slang terms. If it was a word that I had heard for the first time I would ask what it meant. This really helped me to understand the nuances of meaning and to develop an excellent active command of English.
That said, I still have to find the right equivalent terms in my target language German. So I have to make sure to keep up to date with developments in German language and culture. Interestingly, I find that living abroad has sharpenend my perception of my native tongue in some ways. I really notice certain changes of usage in the language, which is perhaps not so surprising when the mothertongue isn't heard all the time. In actual fact, I am thinking of moving back to Germany next year.
I speak Spanish at a conversational level but I would never translate from it without doing much more work on it. So I will concentrate on the language pair I know best.
As is so often the case with these matters I believe there is no hard and fast rule, each case should be judged individually. ▲ Collapse
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Samuel Henderson
United States
Local time: 23:19
Member (2006)
Korean to English
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| Bilingualism and translation are not the same thing | Dec 12, 2007 |
It's great to have productive fluency in one's source language, but I would argue that in itself that has next to nothing to do with the quality of one's output. The world is full of fluent bilinguals who can't translate, and good translators who aren't fully bilingual. IMO there are only three skills that are critical for translation: ability to understand the written source language perfectly, ability to write the target language with fluency and precision, and professional dedication and e... See more It's great to have productive fluency in one's source language, but I would argue that in itself that has next to nothing to do with the quality of one's output. The world is full of fluent bilinguals who can't translate, and good translators who aren't fully bilingual. IMO there are only three skills that are critical for translation: ability to understand the written source language perfectly, ability to write the target language with fluency and precision, and professional dedication and experience in the translation process.
Productive ability in the source language is valuable, because it can inform and enhance one's receptive understanding. But as I see it, it is just one among many possible tools for that purpose, and differs only in degree from other tools such as the use of dictionaries, friends, or software.
On a side note, coming from East Asia this seems like a very European thread. The language pair in which I do most of my work is dominated by translators with a remarkably poor grasp of the *target* language, with predictable results for the profession. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Krys Williams
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:19
Member (2003)
Polish to English
+ ...
| Passive in language but not in field | Dec 15, 2007 |
I have to disagree with many of the comments here. My source languages are all passive, except for one. However, I have a doctorate and extensive work experience in the field in which I translate, and I am careful to limit myself to that field alone. I find that my scientific understanding of the fundamentals of the field means that I can translate successfully; so much so that I am offered far more work than I can accept.
In my view, translation relies on pattern recognition, whic... See more I have to disagree with many of the comments here. My source languages are all passive, except for one. However, I have a doctorate and extensive work experience in the field in which I translate, and I am careful to limit myself to that field alone. I find that my scientific understanding of the fundamentals of the field means that I can translate successfully; so much so that I am offered far more work than I can accept.
In my view, translation relies on pattern recognition, which is very different from the skills needed to express oneself actively in a language, whether in speech or writing.
I know that I can expect howls of protest, but believe me, I have reviewed translations by people who were obviously competent linguists but made huge howlers because they did not understand the specialist context of the documents they were translating. Yes, you can research terminology, but if you do not have a fundamental knowledge of the field in which you are translating, you are at an almighty disadvantage. ▲ Collapse
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