| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Wrong use of term? Thread poster: Cristina Heraud-van Tol
|
|---|
| Go for cheerful | Oct 2, 2007 |
I agree that it's a pity the word "gay" has been hijacked and now is almost universally understood to mean "homosexual", but that's how it is, like it or not.
In such contexts I now always say "cheerful" instead. Offer to change "gay" to "cheerful" and surely your client will not refuse to pay you. Best to keep the customer "cheerful" too!
Best wishes,
Jenny.
| | | | | depends on the target audience | Oct 2, 2007 |
Your usage would certainly be correct for certain audiences, perhaps from an older generation, but in the modern world the first image that the word evokes for most people is homosexuality.
| | | | Lia Fail (X) 
Spain
Local time: 09:56
Spanish to English
+ ...
| I don't think it's a pity ... | Oct 2, 2007 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
I agree that it's a pity the word "gay" has been hijacked and now is almost universally understood to mean "homosexual", but that's how it is, like it or not.
I
Jenny.
The word "gay" didn't belong to anyone or to any community or sub-culture and so couldn't have been hijacked.
[Edited at 2007-10-02 21:38]
| | | | Claire Cox
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:56
French to English
+ ...
| Agree - gay colours just doesn't work for me | Oct 2, 2007 |
I'm afraid I agree with most of the other answers here. "Gay colours" just doesn't work in English. I'm not even sure it works in an old-fashioned context - as other people have suggested, there are other far more suitable words - bright, vivid, cheerful. It would immediately jump out at me in a text, but, in saying that, I don't think it justifies a refusal to pay, merely a query!
On a very slightly related note, my younger son won't even wear clothes by a large American company on... See more I'm afraid I agree with most of the other answers here. "Gay colours" just doesn't work in English. I'm not even sure it works in an old-fashioned context - as other people have suggested, there are other far more suitable words - bright, vivid, cheerful. It would immediately jump out at me in a text, but, in saying that, I don't think it justifies a refusal to pay, merely a query!
On a very slightly related note, my younger son won't even wear clothes by a large American company on the basis that it stands for "Gay and proud" - what hope is there for the word?!!!
[Edited at 2007-10-02 23:20] ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
| The word has another connotation these days | Oct 3, 2007 |
Although you are theoretically correct, the word nowadays has another connotation and is mostly used to refer to 'homosexuals.'
So, even though the word would be perfectly correct for an older generation, the literature pertaining to the glasses is going to be read by a large number of people of different ages. It is thus important to avoid such words that might offend some groups of people or be misunderstood.
Think of it like this: you customer is in fact the first p... See more Although you are theoretically correct, the word nowadays has another connotation and is mostly used to refer to 'homosexuals.'
So, even though the word would be perfectly correct for an older generation, the literature pertaining to the glasses is going to be read by a large number of people of different ages. It is thus important to avoid such words that might offend some groups of people or be misunderstood.
Think of it like this: you customer is in fact the first possible buyer of the product who is reading the material. For example, he might want to buy these glasses - were he not the manufacturer.
The use of this word might in some way have touched something in his personal life. The same thing might happen to other potential clients and then business might be lost.
Even if one of the last of the last definition in the dictionary refers to 'homosexual' you should have been careful and avoided that word.
I would have used 'cheerful' myself.
Well, ny 2 cents.
Good luck!
Lucinda ▲ Collapse
| | | | Marcelo Silveyra
United States
Local time: 00:56
Member (2007)
German to English
+ ...
| Same use on the West Coast (in the U.S) | Oct 3, 2007 |
Amy Williams wrote:
2) the use of "gay" to mean "stupid/unfortunate" is now just as prominent as (if not more prominent than) the use of "gay" to mean "homosexual", at least among young people here in the UK right now. It's (unfortunately) used when people can't think of a proper insult:
"The band has pulled out of the festival. That's soooo gay"
"Getting a parking ticket is, like, so gay"
"pink and red together is so gay"
Just confirming transparx's and Amy's definition of "gay" as "stupid." In fact, "That's soooo gay" made me crack up; I must have heard this one at least a thousand times this year.
I concur with most people on this thread that dictionary definitions are not good enough if you don't have native AND updated knowledge of a language. Here are three (slightly more radical) examples in different languages:
A) In Spanish - say you use the word "linfas" for water in a water filter manual. It's completely and absolutely correct, but no one's going to understand what the hell's going on.
B) In German - say you use the word "vertrackt" for complex/complicated in a short marketing slogan. Once again, 100% spot on as far as the dictionary meaning is concerned, but the word doesn't cut it.
C) In English - Use the word "fag" for a cigarette in a document meant for the gay community in the U.S. and see what kind of response you get. Interestingly enough, this is a far more offensive (if innocent) mistake.
craigs wrote:
Is it too much to expect that a person have a modicum of culture and class? Maybe so in this case, so go ahead and appease your client if it doesn't hurt much--but don't take any type of pay hit. Stand your ground on principle, but be flexible in practice.
No, it's not too much. But when it comes to translating documents, it's not our ideal audience that counts - it's our actual audience. As for the payment issue, I'm afraid we would need the full details (size of the translation, for instance) to be able to comment somewhat objectively on the issue.
| | | | Andrew Levine
United States
Local time: 03:56
Member (2007)
French to English
+ ...
| A language is not a collection of dictionary entries | Oct 3, 2007 |
I agree that "gay colors" was the wrong choice for the reasons the client described (although threatening to reduce your pay for just one poorly chosen word is way over the line on his part). Even though the target audience will surely understand what you mean if you say "gay colors," the simple fact that that particular word has a double meaning, and that the unintended meaning is nowadays prevalent over the intended one, creates a distraction in the minds of readers, and this distraction is no... See more I agree that "gay colors" was the wrong choice for the reasons the client described (although threatening to reduce your pay for just one poorly chosen word is way over the line on his part). Even though the target audience will surely understand what you mean if you say "gay colors," the simple fact that that particular word has a double meaning, and that the unintended meaning is nowadays prevalent over the intended one, creates a distraction in the minds of readers, and this distraction is not a desirable thing.
And this is really a textbook illustration of the dangers inherent in translating into one's second language. Coming across a "loaded" term, a native speaker would notice the unwanted distraction caused by such a word immediately, and decide that it's not worth giving readers pause just for the sake of using a cognate as a translation when perfectly good alternatives exist. But a translator who feels he has to justify himself by saying, "Well, I looked the word up in a dictionary, which clearly showed that both meanings are acceptable, and I even Googled it and saw it was used that way in 10,000 pages etc. etc." is missing the point entirely. One could use the same process to argue that "John kissed Juliette" should be translated in French as "John a baisé Juliette" and even though it can mean "kissed" and the context might even make the true meaning clear to the audience, it is unacceptable because they would be distracted by the double meaning. (Explanation for non-Francophones: "a baisé" often means "had sex with.")
In short, a language is not just a set of dictionary entries (nor just a corpus of published references) and it's not good professional practice for a translator to think of it as one.
[Edited at 2007-10-03 03:36] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Gay has different meaning now | Oct 3, 2007 |
The word "gay" really does mean homosexual or stupid for anyone under 35 these days. Its original meaning is understood only by older people or literature/ Mary Poppins-type buffs (like me) .
That is why if you want to translate into a foreign language you always need to run it by a native speaker via proofreading/ editing. That would have spared you any unnecessary drama.....Just my two cents!
My Frenc... See more The word "gay" really does mean homosexual or stupid for anyone under 35 these days. Its original meaning is understood only by older people or literature/ Mary Poppins-type buffs (like me).
That is why if you want to translate into a foreign language you always need to run it by a native speaker via proofreading/ editing. That would have spared you any unnecessary drama.....Just my two cents!
My French is good but I would never dare translate into French without heavy revision support and even then only in very specific subject areas. That's probably why I haven't bothered with it for about six years now - why should I when it's so much quicker and easier to go into my language? And when the end result is so much better?
I think the client is overdoing it a bit with his financial demands though. Suggest a replacement word and insist on getting your money. ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
Marcelo Silveyra wrote:
As for the payment issue, I'm afraid we would need the full details (size of the translation, for instance) to be able to comment somewhat objectively on the issue.
Or we could just read the original post, and make a judgement about whether or not we feel that it is likely that the author of that post was able to write a native-level translation....
It depends on the scale, as you rightly said, but if I were a client who received several pages, say, written in that style (possibly including similar errors of judgement to the 'gay' issue?), I might be inclined to knock a quid or two off to compensate for the extra time to knock the text into acceptable shape.
| | | | Buck
Netherlands
Local time: 09:56
Dutch to English
| Meaning of words | Oct 3, 2007 |
Hi. I once got into a heated discussion with a colleague about a term, I don't remember which one, but he said 'someone could be offended or take it the wrong way'. I said words have the meaning we each attach to them. If your client thinks gay only means homosexual, he needs to get out more.
| | | | awilliams
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:56
Italian to English
+ ...
| Wrong use of term? | Oct 3, 2007 |
Buck wrote:
Hi. I once got into a heated discussion with a colleague about a term, I don't remember which one, but he said 'someone could be offended or take it the wrong way'. I said words have the meaning we each attach to them. If your client thinks gay only means homosexual, he needs to get out more.
While this is nice and idealistic, when it comes to selling a product it's a different matter altogether.
| | | | | In a nutshell | Oct 3, 2007 |
Amy Williams wrote:
The key here is native and current knowledge, and I'm not going down that road now.
Good luck
]
This is the crux of the matter. Languages are alive and like all living things, they change. Dictionaries don't give you the language and you can't just learn a language from books.
To translate (well), you also have to 'feel' a language -and that feeling is part of the package deal that comes with being a (genuine) native speaker.
| | |
|
|
|
| Transparx, you're just great! | Oct 3, 2007 |
transparx wrote: Cristina Heraud-van Tol wrote:
1) Until what point can we use a word that has two completely opposite meanings, in many places regarded as positive on one hand and negative on the other? ...
Cristina, can you explain why and how one of the two meanings would be negative?
I loved this comment very much!
But back to the other side of the topic:
Cristina, this is your customer, and he has a bad feeling about your choice of words. Listen to the customer, try to understand what it is he is upset about and then look if you can change it.
I'd say: Do not fight his opinion but prove that you are very professional: Change your translation to better fulfill his wishes. Do not let this be about "I am right and you are wrong". Make it "I understand your concerns. So what about a different choice of words to make the text less ambiguous?" You prove you are professional and this does not have to become personal. And your client sees that you are a person who tries to meet his requirements.
I really would not put up a fight on these grounds. And, even though I am no native speaker of this beautiful language, I'd also say that your client really has a point there.
| | | | transparx
United States
Local time: 03:56
English to Italian
+ ...
| that's a wholly different issue. | Oct 3, 2007 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Marcelo Silveyra wrote:
As for the payment issue, I'm afraid we would need the full details (size of the translation, for instance) to be able to comment somewhat objectively on the issue. Or we could just read the original post, and make a judgement about whether or not we feel that it is likely that the author of that post was able to write a native-level translation.... It depends on the scale, as you rightly said, but if I were a client who received several pages, say, written in that style (possibly including similar errors of judgement to the 'gay' issue?), I might be inclined to knock a quid or two off to compensate for the extra time to knock the text into acceptable shape.
Perhaps the client shouldn't have commissioned the translation in the first place.
You can't ask someone to translate something, get an 'acceptable' rough draft that you know you can 'fix' somehow, and then turn around and yell and scream at the translator --and pay him/her less than was agreed.
For instance, I don't know French well enough to even think of venturing into a serious translation. Nonetheless, if I have a working rough draft, I can assure you I can make sense of the source and see whether there are serious problems with the translation. Obviously, it wouldn't be fair to ask someone to translate the original text for, say, USD 0.04 (even 0.05 or 0.06) per word knowing that I'm getting USD 0.15...
I guess I don't need to give any more details.
All I'm saying is that there are several factors to take into account before we make a statement such as the one you made. Indeed, there are quite a few unscrupulous outsourcers out there.
| | | |
Thanks to everybody who posted a comment, especially for those who supported me (Astrid, Buck, Attila, etc.). It was really interesting to read so many points of view. To put it to an end and reply to a few comments, let me tell you that:
1) The client and I agreed to make the change of word together, he chose for 'vivid' and he will not deduct anything from the total amount
2) Comments like "You should h... See more Thanks to everybody who posted a comment, especially for those who supported me (Astrid, Buck, Attila, etc.). It was really interesting to read so many points of view. To put it to an end and reply to a few comments, let me tell you that:
1) The client and I agreed to make the change of word together, he chose for 'vivid' and he will not deduct anything from the total amount
2) Comments like "You should have used" or "You should have chosen" ('alive', 'vivid', 'cheerful', etc.) is aftertalk. I will do so next time, I learned my lesson. At that moment, the word I used came quickly to my mind as something very natural. I often talk in English with relatives and we have used that word to mean 'cheerful'. Although I am in the 30s, perhaps I do form part of an old generation!!
3) This client of mine is not new and I have been working for him since the beginning of the year, mostly translating texts about glasses and eyewear. He is extremely happy with my translations and this is the first time something like this happens. OK, English is not my mother tongue, but I speak it at a near-native level; I have been to a bilingual school and lived for a while in Australia. I now live in Peru, but I use English everyday with my husband: we both don't master/need too much concentration to use the other's mother tongue (Dutch & Spanish), so we meet halfway in English
Greetings! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Wrong use of term? | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer.
Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools.
Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free
Buy now! » |
| | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
