Does 'nouveau riche' decline when used in English? Thread poster: Tim Drayton
|
|---|
Tim Drayton 
Cyprus
Local time: 08:36
Turkish to English
+ ...
Hi. I am for the first time translating a book that is to be published and so find myself confronted by niceties of usage that would not previously have worried me with translations that were not for publication.
I want to use the expression 'nouveau riche' in my text, and find myself wondering if, in English, it should take the French plural form of 'nouveaux riches'.
The main clause of the sentence I am trying to write reads either, 'They were now the nouveau riche... See more Hi. I am for the first time translating a book that is to be published and so find myself confronted by niceties of usage that would not previously have worried me with translations that were not for publication.
I want to use the expression 'nouveau riche' in my text, and find myself wondering if, in English, it should take the French plural form of 'nouveaux riches'.
The main clause of the sentence I am trying to write reads either, 'They were now the nouveau riche of Northern Cyprus' or, 'They were now the nouveaux riches of Northern Cyprus'.
Out of curiosity I also wonder if a feminine form can be used in English. In the case, say, of a women's hairdressers, should they correctly refer to, 'our nouveaux riches clients' or to, 'our nouvelles riches clients'?
I have searched on the Internet and can find conflicting examples with, for instance, 'nouveau riche' used with a plural meaning, and also a few examples where 'nouvelle riche, nouvelles riches' used as a feminine form.
I just wonder what other people feel to be correct. I have currently opted for 'nouveaux riches' as the plural form (in line with the American Hertage Dictionary). ▲ Collapse
| | | | | tricky one... | Nov 28, 2006 |
but I'm not entirely sure I'd keep the agreement in this case, mainly because in English "the rich" is/are invariable. I'm not an expert, however...
| | | | | Examples from well-edited publications | Nov 28, 2006 |
BBC
Serbia's nouveaux riches
The nouveaux riches like to flaunt their money, but they do not want to discuss where it came from.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/633920.stm
The Economist
Or take Mr Wolfe's last-but-one novel, “A Man in Full” (1998). The book opens with a lavish description of a quail hunt among the Georgia nouveaux riche... See more BBC
Serbia's nouveaux riches
The nouveaux riches like to flaunt their money, but they do not want to discuss where it came from.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/633920.stm
The Economist
Or take Mr Wolfe's last-but-one novel, “A Man in Full” (1998). The book opens with a lavish description of a quail hunt among the Georgia nouveaux riches.
http://www.economist.com/World/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=6800760
The New Yorker
Like a typographical vision, Coty appears to his followers only sidewise and in print. With that clannishness that marks the French nouveaux riches, the few friends to whom he appears in the flesh brag freely of the meetings but guardedly refrain from quoting what, if anything, might have been said.
http://www.newyorker.com/printables/archive/050314fr_archive01
The New York Review of Books
Bush-and-Rove enlarged this insight by an order of magnitude. They acted on the premise that America was prodigiously insecure. As an empire, we are nouveaux riches. We look to overcome the uneasiness implicit in this condition by amassing mega-money.
http://www.hereinstead.com/NYReviewOfBooks-ELECTION-2004.htm
[Edited at 2006-11-28 19:06] ▲ Collapse
| | | |
If you use a French phrase, use the French plural. Same as "grands prix". The fact "rich" is invariable is irrelevant, since you are using "riche" not "riches".
| | |
|
|
|
I think you should post this question as a Kudoz question in the English/English pair.
| | | | | Not disagreeing with you, but... | Nov 30, 2006 |
Timothy Barton wrote:
If you use a French phrase, use the French plural. Same as "grands prix". The fact "rich" is invariable is irrelevant, since you are using "riche" not "riches".
... We're not consistent in this - we may go as far as "blonde woman", but when have you ever seen "blondes women"? Or any use of "brava" or "bravi" or "brave" - it's invariably "bravo".
If in this case the plural is used, then all well and good - but it's not an invariable rule. Or do you think the fact that it's a phrase rather than just a word that makes the difference?
| | | | | Reminds me of Villa Incognito | Dec 22, 2006 |
I just finished reading Tom Robbins' Villa Incognito, where he spends a good paragraph justifying the combination of two mismatched foreign words, which are only recognizable in English by retaining their respectively feminine and masculine variations. He finally decides that, since the two words have been fully integrated into the English language, and since in English there is no rule for "declining" as you say, or "according" as we say in French... Villa Incognito is a fully anglicized, viabl... See more I just finished reading Tom Robbins' Villa Incognito, where he spends a good paragraph justifying the combination of two mismatched foreign words, which are only recognizable in English by retaining their respectively feminine and masculine variations. He finally decides that, since the two words have been fully integrated into the English language, and since in English there is no rule for "declining" as you say, or "according" as we say in French... Villa Incognito is a fully anglicized, viable name.
In your place, and as a French speaker, I would leave the phrase in the singular and keep it in italics as you have done.
I also urge you not to use "nouvelles riches" even when talking exclusively about women, because the expression formed by the two words is best understood in the masculine form, even in French.
Good luck! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | depends on how well known and used phrase is | Feb 12, 2007 |
Inkling wrote:
because the expression formed by the two words is best understood in the masculine form, even in French.
Inkling brought up a good point, one that I would take into consideration.
For very well known expressions--like nouveau riche--I would decline the expression.
For less well known, I would not, since you might lose some of the recognition factor.
For the record, it drives me crazy when I hear people crying "bravo" to a soprano at an opera in London.
See what the Economist says about it. I think they have something that discusses this issue in their Style Guide.
http://www.economist.com/research/StyleGuide
| | |
|
|
|
Richard Benham
France
Local time: 07:36
German to English
+ ...
In memoriam | But isn’t <i>soprano</i> masculine? | Apr 14, 2007 |
I’d tend to use nouveaux riches as a noun in the plural, and leave it invariable as an adjective. Most English speakers (especially, but not only, outside the UK) have a pretty poor grasp, if any, of French. So nouvelles riches is not likely to appeal to anyone.
According to my dictionary, nouveau is used “Avec une valeur d’adj., mais variable devant les adj. et les p. passés pris comme noms&rdquo, and it actually gives nouveaux riches as an examp... See more I’d tend to use nouveaux riches as a noun in the plural, and leave it invariable as an adjective. Most English speakers (especially, but not only, outside the UK) have a pretty poor grasp, if any, of French. So nouvelles riches is not likely to appeal to anyone.
According to my dictionary, nouveau is used “Avec une valeur d’adj., mais variable devant les adj. et les p. passés pris comme noms&rdquo, and it actually gives nouveaux riches as an example, which is all very fine until you think about nouveau-né, where nouveau is supposed to be invariable. With inconsistencies like this, how are non-linguist non-natives supposed to cope? (I’d point out that French-speaking natives seem to be among the worst at complying with the “official” rules of their own language....)
And what to we do about tête-à-tête in the plural in English? I had to laugh at the woman who wanted to call them têtes-à-tête, but really it is hard to explain to the non-specialist why it is invariant in French. I prefer to avoid Gallicisms in English, and vice versa (although I haven’t got around to declaring war on Latinisms), and if called upon to use the word in the plural in English, I would probably write tête-à-têtes. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tim Drayton
Cyprus
Local time: 08:36
Turkish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Just as a postscript, an experienced editor has worked on my text and made large numbers of alterations. However, s/he left nouveaux riches unaltered.
| | | | lestertrad
Local time: 07:36
French to English
+ ...
For the record, it drives me crazy when I hear people crying "bravo" to a soprano at an opera in London.
I agree, but I've always hesitated to do it for fear of being considered a horse's *ss. Thanks!
| | | | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Does 'nouveau riche' decline when used in English? | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
More info » |
| | Wordfast Pro | Translation Memory Software for Any Platform
Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users!
Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value
Buy now! » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
