| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Which is right? Thread poster: jyuan_us
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Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 22:45
Dutch to English
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jyuan_us wrote:
I'm asking your opinion about this sentence: "since 1972 no one has ventured much farther into space than Des Moines is from Chicago." (You may be aware that this is a sentence contained in one of the previous translation contests.) I found that Chinese translators are varied in their interpretation of the sentence.
Some interpret it this way: "Since 1972, man has ventured into the space only a little farther than the distance between Des Moines and Chicago."
Some interpret it this way: "Since 1972, man has ventured into the space for a distance that is less than the distance between Des Moines and Chicago.
Can you let us know which is right?
[Edited at 2020-06-21 05:08 GMT]
I think the original sentence is fine as it is. It's the kind of thing a journalist might say, not a scientist. Any changes to make it 'scientifically correct' ruin the original idea of the writer.
| | | | jyuan_us 
United States
Local time: 00:45
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Tina Vonhof wrote:
I think the original sentence is fine as it is. It's the kind of thing a journalist might say, not a scientist. Any changes to make it 'scientifically correct' ruin the original idea of the writer.
I think the "than Des Moines is from Chicago" was purposefully used by the author to achieve a rhetorical effect. I can't imagine an Economist author would make such a "low-level" error.
I remember seeing similar structures multiple times elsewhere.
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 00:45
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
The sentence has been interpreted as "since 1972, man has ventured into the space for a distance that is less than the distance between Des Moines and Chicago." on many Chinese websites. Some of these websites are actually used to teach English or promote translation services.
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 00:45
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Also interestingly | Jun 23, 2020 |
Quite some translators understood the sentence this way: "since 1972, man has ventured into the space for a distance [beyond the moon] that is less than the distance between Des Moines and Chicago."
I find such a misunderstanding hard to believe.
[Edited at 2020-06-23 01:16 GMT]
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Tony Keily
Local time: 06:45
Italian to English
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Women have also ventured into space.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 06:45
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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| Chinese audience. | Jun 23, 2020 |
jyuan_us wrote:
The sentence has been interpreted as "since 1972, man has ventured into the space for a distance that is less than the distance between Des Moines and Chicago." on many Chinese websites. Some of these websites are actually used to teach English or promote translation services.
I’m sure an average Chinese reader knows the distance between Des Moines and Chicago automatically without having to google it. If it’s an informative style article and I’m an average reader, I want to get informed quickly and efficiently, without having to google stuff. The only instance in which I may approve the use of such comparison is if the article is from a local Chicago area newspapers (maybe not even for broader US audience).
Now literary texts are something else, where some readers may enjoy some mystery, convoluted sentences, having to go back in the text to re-interpret things, etc.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 06:45
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Human being? | Jun 23, 2020 |
Anthony Keily wrote:
Women have also ventured into space.
Man also means a human being in general sense. Same thing in my language, it has two meanings. I know it may appear sexist that a human being in general sense is not denoted with, for instance, the word “woman”. But it is what it is.
A journalist writing for a very broad internet audience perhaps could have used another word.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 06:45
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| @Juan, 400 km above the moon | Jun 23, 2020 |
jyuan_us wrote:
Quite some translators understood the sentence this way: "since 1972, man has ventured into the space for a distance [beyond the moon] that is less than the distance between Des Moines and Chicago."
Well, allow me to offer some possible reasons for this interpretation.
Firstly, where is "space"? Those of us who understand this sentence to mean that humans did not travel more than 400 km above the earth surface since 1972 interpret "space" here to mean the area directly above the surface of the earth. This is, admittedly, an unusual interpretation, if you think about it super logically. When we say that Yuri Gagarin was the first man in space, clearly "space" means something other than all of the area above the ground.
Where does space begin: at the Kármán line, at the edge of low earth orbit, or at the point of land furthest away from the centre of the double planet that we call "earth and moon"?
As far as I'm concerned, the original sentence is not ambiguous. But if I look at it from a strictly super logical perspective, it turns out to be very ambiguous. If I start driving from a place that is 50 km outside of Germany and I drive into Germany, I can say that I travelled "200 km into Germany" without implying that everything from my point of departure is "Germany", but I can't say that I travelled "200 km into Germany" if my total journey has been only 200 km so far. Yet paradoxically this is exactly what we mean when we say "400 km into space".
Secondly, what is "1972"? Does "since 1972" mean since the start of 1972 or since the start of 1973? Remember, astronauts last walked on the moon in mid December 1972. When I say "since I was a little boy", it includes the period of time that I was a little boy. I don't mean "since I no longer was a little boy" when I say "since I was a little boy".
Therefore, from a logical perspective, and if we are allowed to consider the sentence to be a statement of fact (which facts can be verified from historical records), the interpretation that you mention in the quote above is entirely plausible.
[Edited at 2020-06-23 10:24 GMT]
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jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 00:45
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
Lingua 5B wrote: jyuan_us wrote:
The sentence has been interpreted as "since 1972, man has ventured into the space for a distance that is less than the distance between Des Moines and Chicago." on many Chinese websites. Some of these websites are actually used to teach English or promote translation services. I’m sure an average Chinese reader knows the distance between Des Moines and Chicago automatically without having to google it. If it’s an informative style article and I’m an average reader, I want to get informed quickly and efficiently, without having to google stuff. The only instance in which I may approve the use of such comparison is if the article is from a local Chicago area newspapers (maybe not even for broader US audience). Now literary texts are something else, where some readers may enjoy some mystery, convoluted sentences, having to go back in the text to re-interpret things, etc.
The original question was asked in order to find out if "not much farther than" means "a little farther than" or "less than." The actual number of the distance in the sentence is not a major concern.
A lot of professional translators understand "not much farther than" as "less than." In this context the actual number may not matter that much, because it is more of a literary piece, as you mentioned. However, it is necessary to find out what "not much farther than" actually means, because in other cases, expressing a number/amount precisely is extremely important.
[Edited at 2020-06-24 00:14 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:45
Member (2008)
Italian to English
jyuan_us wrote:
A lot of professional translators understand "not much farther than" as "less than."
I don't know what you mean by "a lot". But I certainly do know that "not much farther than" is quite different from "less than."
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 00:45
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Tom in London wrote: jyuan_us wrote:
A lot of professional translators understand "not much farther than" as "less than." I don't know what you mean by "a lot". But I certainly do know that "not much farther than" is quite different from "less than."
I made the observation based on my interactions with peer linguists, and on what I read on the websites. For example, an overwhelming majority of the English to Chinese participants of the translation contest of Bon Voyage: "Stories About Travel" translated “not much farther than” into “less than,” which was “liked” by some peer linguists who tagged the entries. The fact made me curious why they thought “not much farther than” was equal to “less than.” Hence I started this thread to get your guys’ opinions about it.
[Edited at 2020-06-26 20:11 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 00:45
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Just for example | Jun 28, 2020 |
You may want to see the featured answer to a similar question raised by someone on this webpage https://hinative.com/en-US/questions/13939632:
"It’s basically saying that the distance we have traveled into space is less than the distance from Des Moines (Iowa) to Chicago (Illinois)"
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James Plastow
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:45
Member (2020)
Japanese to English
105 km is "not much" farther than 100 km.
300 km is "much" farther than 100 km.
As far as I know there is no exact cut off point for how much counts as "much" farther or "not much" farther, it's just rough.
[Edited at 2020-06-28 22:44 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 00:45
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | You made a good point | Jun 28, 2020 |
James Plastow wrote:
105 km is "not much" farther than 100 km.
300 km is "much" farther than 100 km.
As far as I know there is no exact cut off point for how much counts as "much" farther or "not much" farther, it's just rough.
[Edited at 2020-06-28 22:44 GMT]
The fact is that quite some people translated or understood "not much farther than" as "less than," which is really beyond me. Using their logic, 105 km will be "not" farther than 100 km. That is hilarious.
[Edited at 2020-06-28 23:06 GMT]
| | | | James Plastow
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:45
Member (2020)
Japanese to English
The idea is "space travel since 1972 has not been very far, and not as far as it probably should be"
In English, we commonly use the construction "not much more/better/farther than..."
I do not know for Chinese, but for Japanese I believe you would want to express this idea using a sentence construction with "less than" (perhaps choosing two other cities) or else it would be a very clumsy sentence.
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