Question about the word "border" Thread poster: Angie Garbarino
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Hello dear colleagues
Today I was talking with my colleague who teaches philosophy in the same school where I teach.
We were discussing about the term "border", comparing it with its Italian translation "confine", and we wondered if the term means included or excluded the ending land since the Italian word “confine” (con fine) if translated literally would be "with end “ that is “including the end of the ending land”.
So I thought to ask you ... See more Hello dear colleagues
Today I was talking with my colleague who teaches philosophy in the same school where I teach.
We were discussing about the term "border", comparing it with its Italian translation "confine", and we wondered if the term means included or excluded the ending land since the Italian word “confine” (con fine) if translated literally would be "with end “ that is “including the end of the ending land”.
So I thought to ask you if the term “border” has to be intended including or excluding the end of the ending land.
I hope I was able to explain my question clearly
Thank you all for your very appreciated inputs/explanations
[Edited at 2011-05-02 14:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | A very interesting question | May 2, 2011 |
If we are to believe that "border" derives from Frankish "bord" (a plank), I reckon it would make sense that "border" is not just the divisory line but the piece of land immediately before it.
| | | | S E (X)
Italy
Local time: 19:45
Italian to English
| border includes the area near it | May 2, 2011 |
Hi Angie G.,
Yes, just as you supposed, "border" can be used to mean the actual dividing line and/or the area adjacent to it.
A common example in American culture is the "Mexican border" which refers not just to the actual line dividing the two countries but the whole area around that line.
This is the definition from the Oxford Dictionary of English:
Border: "the edge or bounda... See more Hi Angie G.,
Yes, just as you supposed, "border" can be used to mean the actual dividing line and/or the area adjacent to it.
A common example in American culture is the "Mexican border" which refers not just to the actual line dividing the two countries but the whole area around that line.
This is the definition from the Oxford Dictionary of English:
Border: "the edge or boundary of something, or the part near it."
Ciao!
Sarah ▲ Collapse
| | | | Just Opera
Belgium
Local time: 19:45
French to English
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| bordure = edge | May 2, 2011 |
I see a border as more the edge of something that does not contain terrain in itself. Like the border of a page, it delimits the space and is an established boundary. The etymology coming from French (bordure, edge of a shield). Where the edge or side (bord) is reinforced.
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| Borders/Borders | May 2, 2011 |
I see "border" as being the line of demarcation, and as a line, it has only length and not width. On the other hands, I live in an area referred to as "the borders", being within a few miles of the border between two countries.
| | | | | Apropos borders | May 3, 2011 |
PSALM
by Wislawa Szymborska
Oh, the leaking borders of man-made states.
How many clouds float by with impunity;
how much desert sand shifts from one land to another;
how many boulders tumble down mountain sides onto foreign soil in provocative leaps.
Need I mention every single bird that flies in the face of frontiers
or alights on a roadblock at the border?
A simple sparrow, perched, its tail abroad
while its beak faces... See more PSALM
by Wislawa Szymborska
Oh, the leaking borders of man-made states.
How many clouds float by with impunity;
how much desert sand shifts from one land to another;
how many boulders tumble down mountain sides onto foreign soil in provocative leaps.
Need I mention every single bird that flies in the face of frontiers
or alights on a roadblock at the border?
A simple sparrow, perched, its tail abroad
while its beak faces us. And look how it bobs cheekily to and fro.
Among innumerable insects I single out the ant;
scurrying between the border guard’s left and right jackboot blithely ignoring the challenge “Who goes there?”
Oh, to register clearly, at a glance, this confusion on every continent.
Isn’t that a privet on the far bank
smuggling its hundred-thousandth leaf across the river?
And who, if not the impudent long-armed octopus
would dare disrupt the sacred bounds of territorial waters?
And how can we talk of order at all
when the very placement of the stars
leaves us doubting which ones shine on us?
Not to speak of the fog’s reprehensible drifting.
And dust blowing all over the steppes
as if they hadn’t been partitioned.
And voices coasting on obliging airwaves,
tempting chirps, and meaningful murmurings.
Only what is human can truly be alien.
The rest is mixed vegetation, subversive moles, and wind.
When in doubt -- check Collins or another good dictionary... and of course a thesaurus.
[Edited at 2011-05-03 10:01 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-05-03 10:06 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | ATIL KAYHAN 
Türkiye
Local time: 20:45
Member (2007)
Turkish to English
+ ...
As far as I know, border is the dividing line between two or more pieces of land. Border is only two dimensional, one needs to specify only one x and one y coordinate regarding border. Border (line) does not have a thickness. For that matter, being on the border and being close to the border are two completely different things. Sometimes these two are confused. Being close to the border is sometimes taken as being on the border.
| | | | S E (X)
Italy
Local time: 19:45
Italian to English
| definition of border includes area near a border line | May 3, 2011 |
To ATIL KAYHAN, AudioLex, Just Opera,
You might find it useful/interesting/informative to note that in common usage as well as in dictionary definitions (which of course develop out of common usage), the primary definition of border INCLUDES the area around a border line.
In addition to the Oxford definition I offered above (which defines "border" as: "the edge or boundary of something, or the part near it"), see also:
Merriam-Webster: "an outer part or edg... See more To ATIL KAYHAN, AudioLex, Just Opera,
You might find it useful/interesting/informative to note that in common usage as well as in dictionary definitions (which of course develop out of common usage), the primary definition of border INCLUDES the area around a border line.
In addition to the Oxford definition I offered above (which defines "border" as: "the edge or boundary of something, or the part near it"), see also:
Merriam-Webster: "an outer part or edge"
Macmillan: "the area close to a border"
...and the list goes on.
All of these define border as either a line of demarcation AND as the area around a line of demarcation.
This is supported by everyday use of the term.
Even Cambridge, which defines "border" as a dividing line, chooses for its single usage example one that shows that "border" in fact means also the area around a border line: "The Rio Grande forms part of the US border." (The Rio Grande can hardly be considered two dimensional and yet it forms PART of the US border.)
Border and Border Line are two different things, in that Border can refer either to the line or the area near the line.
[Edited at 2011-05-03 09:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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B D Finch
France
Local time: 19:45
French to English
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| It all depends | May 3, 2011 |
AudioLex wrote:
I see "border" as being the line of demarcation, and as a line, it has only length and not width. On the other hands, I live in an area referred to as "the borders", being within a few miles of the border between two countries.
That can be used to nicely illustrate why there is no single correct answer. It all depends which border you are talking about and the answer will not be found in dictionaries as it is not linguistic but historical, military, political etc. The Scottish borders have now become an administrative area north of the border and either side of the River Tweed. Historically, the Welsh and Scottish borders as perceived from the English side of them used to be wild and woolly, especially woolly, and the area they covered and where they were situated might have depended upon the last war, incursion or where it was safe to graze sheep without them being rustled etc.
This also gets rather complex at airports and embassies. Have you crossed the border when the plane lands or when you go through passport control? One of the reasons that I love living in mainland Europe is that the main way of knowing when I have crossed into Spain is that the language coming over the car radio miraculously changes from French to Spanish. There is no noticable line on the road, though there is a small sign by the side of the road. That is a border that is a line and has only one dimension. On the other hand the border between the US and Mexico seems to be quite wide and two-dimensional. I hope that one day it will become one-dimensional, to the benefit of the people on both sides of it.
[Edited at 2011-05-03 13:57 GMT]
| | | | Angie Garbarino
Local time: 19:45
Member (2003)
French to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
George Hopkins wrote:
When in doubt -- check Collins or another good dictionary... and of course a thesaurus.
I just like discussion threads that in my opinion are really very interesting, surely more than a dictionary, while I know that dictionaries are very useful as I am used to check them since about 1970.
Many thanks to all of you for your very interesting points!
[Edited at 2011-05-04 13:54 GMT]
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