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Off topic: over-painted canvas...or ?
Thread poster: Morten Olesen
Helen Shiner
Helen Shiner  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:20
German to English
+ ...
Discussion Feb 18, 2011

Raúl Casanova wrote:

I wouldn't dare to argue with you in one field you are expert and I am not. I wouldn't dare to argue with native English spekers, either, and my first recomendation to moggy was to wait for a native English speaker opinion. My comment was based on reading the article you referred us to, Let me quote what it says:
"Following its purchase in 1997, the picture was ‘restored’ in the United States. The restorers took the sketchy and rapid application of paint to be damage, and filled in large swathes of the canvas, totally altering the picture’s appearance. Large passages were over-painted: the drapery was rendered flat and shapeless; the fingers became crudely defined, and the background was made uniformly flat".


I have no objection to discussion with, or being over-ruled by, anyone, native or non-native, specialist or otherwise, as long as they can back it up with evidence. The point is to help not mislead the Asker. In reference to the quote you give from the article I provided, just because one restorer did a bad job doesn't mean that the term is wrong nor that the technique is related to excess. In fact, it rather underlines my argument.


 
Helen Shiner
Helen Shiner  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:20
German to English
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@ Nicole / Moggy Feb 18, 2011

Thanks, Nicole, too kind!

Best of luck, Moggy, with fame, fortune and creativity!


 
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:20
German to English
ADJ form atypical? Feb 18, 2011

Hello everyone,
Just my two cents, but...

While the verb + preposition "to paint over" is clearly correct and standard, I have my doubts about converting it into an adjective.
Google (region: UK and even simply language: English) doesn't really like the adjective form. Grove Art Online certainly doesn't like it either (although it is very happy with "to paint over").
Maybe the grammatical form is the source of the disagreement here?

"Image X, painted
... See more
Hello everyone,
Just my two cents, but...

While the verb + preposition "to paint over" is clearly correct and standard, I have my doubts about converting it into an adjective.
Google (region: UK and even simply language: English) doesn't really like the adjective form. Grove Art Online certainly doesn't like it either (although it is very happy with "to paint over").
Maybe the grammatical form is the source of the disagreement here?

"Image X, painted over the previous image Y" or one of the million possible variations of this is probably the most natural way to express what you mean in fluent English.

So, I agree with Helen, but I think that she was led a little astray by the original question.

Sincerely,
Michael
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Ioana Daia
Ioana Daia  Identity Verified
Romania
Local time: 13:20
Spanish to Romanian
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One idea Feb 18, 2011

I've read the thread with interest, one does not found so often on proz.com forum these kind of constructive discussions.
One word has come into my mind and I think it might be appropriate, though a bit precious...
Palimpsest. It's sometimes used in art descriptions, like here

... See more
I've read the thread with interest, one does not found so often on proz.com forum these kind of constructive discussions.
One word has come into my mind and I think it might be appropriate, though a bit precious...
Palimpsest. It's sometimes used in art descriptions, like here

http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/technical-bulletin-vol-31/marjorie_wieseman2010
"While Rembrandt (like other Dutch artists) is known to have painted on previously used supports, most of these ‘palimpsests’ date from the early part of his career and of those, the majority are self portraits. Only a handful of ‘palimpsest’ paintings date from the 1650s and later."

just my 2 cents

[Edited at 2011-02-18 20:35 GMT]
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Helen Shiner
Helen Shiner  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:20
German to English
+ ...
Led astray? Feb 18, 2011

Michael Wetzel wrote:

Hello everyone,
Just my two cents, but...

While the verb + preposition "to paint over" is clearly correct and standard, I have my doubts about converting it into an adjective.
Google (region: UK and even simply language: English) doesn't really like the adjective form. Grove Art Online certainly doesn't like it either (although it is very happy with "to paint over").
Maybe the grammatical form is the source of the disagreement here?

"Image X, painted over the previous image Y" or one of the million possible variations of this is probably the most natural way to express what you mean in fluent English.

So, I agree with Helen, but I think that she was led a little astray by the original question.

Sincerely,
Michael


Not led astray, Michael, just using the correct technical term. My original link was from the Sotheby's website. If you wish to question that, I suggest you consult Apelt (Overpainting) - p. 164 in my copy. See also:

Conservation
2006: The frame was cleaned and some repairs to the flaking gilding were carried out.
2007/8: More work was carried out on the frame to replace the running leaf pattern where necessary.
2008/9: The painting’s varnish was removed; it had been heavily over-painted probably to disguise severe drying cracks and wear (from earlier cleaning regimes). Retouching was carried out using a varnish and dry pigments, and the painting was re-varnished. The brittle tacking edge of the canvas was strengthened by strip lining.
2009: The painting was re-framed with measures to provide protection from dust at the reverse.
http://www.supremecourt.gov.uk/visiting/art-at-the-court.html

"Separation of Night & Day" by Guido Reni c1599; quadrafoil shape 15ft x 14ft. A true fresco, originally painted on a ceiling in the Palazzo Zani, Bologna; it had been removed from the ceiling and marouflaged onto canvas in the 1840s and subsequently installed as a ceiling painting in the library at Kingston Lacy. The original fresco had suffered damage during its removal and was completely over-painted in an oil paint medium in the 1840's. In 2005 we transported the painting to our studio for full conservation. We removed the over-paint to reveal the original fresco; which although badly damaged has now been fully retouched to re-integrate the original composition. The retouchings and in-painting were executed with ground pigments in a casein based medium. The completed fresco was returned to the ceiling of the Library at Kingston Lacy in Jan 2006.
http://www.conservationregister.com/WorkshopID.asp?Workshop=538

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=3913623

http://www.gizmag.com/overpainted-masterpieces-revealed/9725/

In the 80's Christie's sold a painting they described in the auction catalogue as 'Egon Schiele and signed with initials, painted in 1908'. The hammer price was £500,000. Several years later Schiele experts opined that 'an unnamed person had extensively over-painted' the original, including Schiele's initials.
http://www.artquest.org.uk/artlaw/money/auctions/seller-buyer-auctioneers.htm

Just a few of the many examples of the term being used properly.

It is also worth noting that meat that is 'over-done' cannot be described as being 'done over' (if you want to retain the same meaning). Nor has a man who is 'over-worked' been 'worked over'.


 
Helen Shiner
Helen Shiner  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:20
German to English
+ ...
@ Ioana Feb 18, 2011

Ioana Daia wrote:

I've read the thread with interest, one does not found so often on proz.com forum these kind of constructive discussions.
One word has come into my mind and I think it might be appropriate, though a bit precious...
Palimpsest. It's sometimes used in art descriptions, like here

http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/technical-bulletin-vol-31/marjorie_wieseman2010
"While Rembrandt (like other Dutch artists) is known to have painted on previously used supports, most of these ‘palimpsests’ date from the early part of his career and of those, the majority are self portraits. Only a handful of ‘palimpsest’ paintings date from the 1650s and later."

just my 2 cents

[Edited at 2011-02-18 20:35 GMT]


A lovely word, palimpsest, I always think. A palimpsest is a scroll or other manuscript where the original text has been rubbed out or scratched away and replaced. It wouldn't normally be used to describe a canvas. I imagine that the term's use in the link you give, which appears in inverted commas, is meant to be figurative.

[Edited at 2011-02-18 22:00 GMT]


 
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:20
German to English
Different concept? Feb 18, 2011

Hello Helen,
Does your term really fit the concept that the asker was looking for?

The original question was about painting entirely new paintings over existing paintings and not about reworking or restoring existing paintings. All of the sources that you provide refer to the latter concept.

If you search Google (language: English, region: UK ... van gogh + "painted over"), the first page has the BBC and several major British papers discussing a case from 2008 and
... See more
Hello Helen,
Does your term really fit the concept that the asker was looking for?

The original question was about painting entirely new paintings over existing paintings and not about reworking or restoring existing paintings. All of the sources that you provide refer to the latter concept.

If you search Google (language: English, region: UK ... van gogh + "painted over"), the first page has the BBC and several major British papers discussing a case from 2008 and using "paint over". (The first hit of the same search with "over-painted" is legitimate, the rest of the first page is a confusing jumble ranging from the sense of "not knowing when to quit" to painting over photographs.)

"Rembrandt" and "leonardo" seem to produce similar results.

In the context of an artist speaking or writing for a general audience and particularly in reference to the specific concept in question, the collocation "paint over" still seems like a significantly better solution to me than the adjective form.

Sincerely,
Michael
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Helen Shiner
Helen Shiner  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:20
German to English
+ ...
Different concept? Feb 18, 2011

Michael Wetzel wrote:

Hello Helen,
Does your term really fit the concept that the asker was looking for?

The original question was about painting entirely new paintings over existing paintings and not about reworking or restoring existing paintings. All of the sources that you provide refer to the latter concept.

If you search Google (language: English, region: UK ... van gogh + "painted over"), the first page has the BBC and several major British papers discussing a case from 2008 and using "paint over". (The first hit of the same search with "over-painted" is legitimate, the rest of the first page is a confusing jumble ranging from the sense of "not knowing when to quit" to painting over photographs.)

"Rembrandt" and "leonardo" seem to produce similar results.

In the context of an artist speaking or writing for a general audience and particularly in reference to the specific concept in question, the collocation "paint over" still seems like a significantly better solution to me than the adjective form.

Sincerely,
Michael


No, I am not talking about a different concept.

[Edited at 2011-02-18 23:07 GMT]


 
Lingua 5B
Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 12:20
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Careful with the phrasal particle.. Feb 18, 2011

Helen Shiner wrote:
It is also worth noting that meat that is 'over-done' cannot be described as being 'done over' (if you want to retain the same meaning). Nor has a man who is 'over-worked' been 'worked over'.


The "over" particle changes implications in different collocations.. We saw it in earlier examples. So, the test you are presenting is not really fully relevant.



[Edited at 2011-02-18 23:46 GMT]


 
Helen Shiner
Helen Shiner  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:20
German to English
+ ...
Humour Feb 18, 2011

Lingua 5B wrote:

Helen Shiner wrote:
It is also worth noting that meat that is 'over-done' cannot be described as being 'done over' (if you want to retain the same meaning). Nor has a man who is 'over-worked' been 'worked over'.


The "over" particle changes implications in different collocations.. your examples are where "over" is not physical referring to a surface, that's why the equivalence test didn't work.


Not an equivalence test, really, Lingua 5B, just meant to be amusing. However, painting over a canvas really is absolutely no improvement on over-painting. Painting over sounds like DIY and house renovation to me. I am now going to leave the splitting of hairs to you all, since the asker made it clear that he was happy with what had been suggested - quite a long time ago.


 
Lingua 5B
Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 12:20
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Hair splitting, humor again? Feb 18, 2011

No hair splitting here.

Your examples are good but not fully relevant ( when you moved the particle around); I was just commenting on that part, I am not talking about the final solution for the asker ( as I really don't have one).


 
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