| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | The end of a word? (gotten) Thread poster: George Trail
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George Trail 
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:53
Member (2009)
French to English
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This is for everyone who's ever been told that they should be embarrassed at a perceived fault in their English, but they just don't get it. Have you ever noticed that no-one says "gotten" anymore? (or should that be "any more"?)
I wouldn't surprised if someone out there got surprised at the idea that "gotten" is even a word. At least, I keep hearing, "I've got it" when you should say "gotten" as the past participle. I suppose that I myself would probably say, "I've got it" if I'd j... See more This is for everyone who's ever been told that they should be embarrassed at a perceived fault in their English, but they just don't get it. Have you ever noticed that no-one says "gotten" anymore? (or should that be "any more"?)
I wouldn't surprised if someone out there got surprised at the idea that "gotten" is even a word. At least, I keep hearing, "I've got it" when you should say "gotten" as the past participle. I suppose that I myself would probably say, "I've got it" if I'd just understood a joke right then i.e. the understanding of a joke happened in the immediate past and not at some farther point in the past.
On a side note, it reminds me of "lain", the proper past participle of the verb "to lay". And people definitely get "to lay" confused with "to lie". The former is a transitive verb even though I have to admit that "lay" is also the past tense of "to lie" e.g. "I lay down on my bed." ▲ Collapse
| | | | patyjs
Mexico
Local time: 10:53
Spanish to English
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| Gotten is an Americanism | Feb 6, 2011 |
It's taught in language schools as the participle in American English although we British stick to "got". Personally, I'd be happy if its use was in decline, although I'm not convinced it is. It always grates when I hear it...as do "off of" and misuse of the conditional "If you would have gotten there earlier..." (double whammy!)
But that's just me. There are probably many British language quirks that grate on you Americans...let's hear them.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 17:53
Member (2007)
English
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| British vs American English | Feb 6, 2011 |
George Trail wrote:
Have you ever noticed that no-one says "gotten" anymore? (or should that be "any more"?)
I wouldn't surprised if someone out there got surprised at the idea that "gotten" is even a word. At least, I keep hearing, "I've got it" when you should say "gotten" as the past participle.
Speak for yourself, George. For me, and every other British person as far as I know, the past simple and past participle of "get" is "got". "Gotten" has not existed in the British variant of English since shortly after the Pilgrim Fathers left for America. (Someone else hopefully knows when we stopped using it). That could be why you hear it so rarely around where you live, although as Payjs says we hear it on the TV all the time.
| | | | Angela Dickson (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:53
French to English
+ ...
George Trail wrote:
At least, I keep hearing, "I've got it" when you should say "gotten" as the past participle.
What makes you think "gotten" "should" be the past participle of get? Who do you think makes these rules?
It is a standard past participle in American English, but barely exists in the UK. This is a descriptive fact that can account for your observation, but it doesn't account for your strange edict.
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Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 09:53
English to German
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In memoriam | @Patyjs: Sorry... but | Feb 6, 2011 |
patyjs wrote:
It's taught in language schools as the participle in American English although we British stick to "got". Personally, I'd be happy if its use was in decline, although I'm not convinced it is. It always grates when I hear it...as do "off of" and misuse of the conditional "If you would have gotten there earlier..." (double whammy!)
But that's just me. There are probably many British language quirks that grate on you Americans...let's hear them.
Hi Patyjs,
I am afraid to inform you that this is not an Americanism, it is British. The usage of "gotten" is considered bad style in the US. I fail to see any indication that this term is taught at American schools.
Here is something that might be of interest to you:
"Although the British stopped using the past participle gotten about three hundred years ago, the American colonists and their descendants--especially in New England--still tend to use it.
Some English teachers have tried to ban its usage to make American English conform to British English, especially during the nineteenth and early twentieth century when there was a movement to purify English. Others are just not used to its use because it is not used in their region and hear it as an error.
Ultimately, language is convention. If you are writing for a formal audience outside of New England, you might want to use the simple past form got instead. It is like the dictum to never end a sentence with a preposition because that is something some people just will not put--ummm--up with which some people just will not put!
Yes.
For example: "Since I last saw you, you have gotten big!"
Gotten is correct, and very old. In England many people wrongly assume that gotten is a modern Americanism, but the truth is the English more-or-less stopped using it, and have forgotten (!) that they used to use it.
That said, "gotten" isn't good English. In most cases other, more precise and meaningful words should be used in its place.
While "have got" sounds wrong to American ears, "have gotten" can usually be replaced by "have become", and "have been able to" or "have had the chance/opportunity to" would make better sense in other situations.
"You would have got along with him" is proper English.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_gotten_correct_grammar
________________________
Perhaps not every incidence of lousy English should be labeled "Americanism".
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 17:53
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Interesting remarks, Nicole | Feb 6, 2011 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
The usage of "gotten" is considered bad style in the US. I fail to see any indication that this term is taught at American schools.
I'm pleased about that but it's strange, because British EFL grammar books give "gotten" as the AmEng variant.
From your quote:
"Although the British stopped using the past participle gotten about three hundred years ago, the American colonists and their descendants--especially in New England--still tend to use it."
Yes, that's what I tell my students: it was correct English in Britain at that time, but whereas our American cousins continued to use it, it went out of use in Britain.
Gotten is correct, and very old. In England many people wrongly assume that gotten is a modern Americanism, but the truth is the English more-or-less stopped using it, and have forgotten (!) that they used to use it.
I agree with most of that, but I can assure you that it is considered incorrect nowadays in British English. In much the same way as "shoppe" would be flagged as a spelling mistake. And "store" would be flagged in most contexts as an Americanism.
Perhaps not every incidence of lousy English should be labeled "Americanism".
Now that is definitely something that I and others need to take to heart. I've got(ten) to say that it is tempting
| | | | | It may not even be AE vs. BE | Feb 6, 2011 |
I am not an expert in BE, but in the U.S. "got" and "gotten" occur fairly randomly, as far as I can tell. The choice between the two may even be a matter of prosodic convenience, just like we sometimes insert or omit "the" to give the right rhythm to the phrase.
As to "lain", you've got it exactly backwards, George, it's the past participle of "lie", not "lay".
Speaking of fairly recent changes in the language, an interesting example is the use of two different forms of... See more I am not an expert in BE, but in the U.S. "got" and "gotten" occur fairly randomly, as far as I can tell. The choice between the two may even be a matter of prosodic convenience, just like we sometimes insert or omit "the" to give the right rhythm to the phrase.
As to "lain", you've got it exactly backwards, George, it's the past participle of "lie", not "lay".
Speaking of fairly recent changes in the language, an interesting example is the use of two different forms of past participle depending on the specific meaning of the verb, or on whether it is used as transitive or intransitive: "hanged" vs. "hung", "speeded" vs. "sped", etc.
[Edited at 2011-02-06 15:49 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 09:53
English to German
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In memoriam
We hear this term a lot in historical movies - and also around St. Patrick's Day. But then it takes a beautiful Irish accent to make it sound right.
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Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 19:53
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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| Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 18:53
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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| Archaism in B.E., Modernism in A.E. | Feb 6, 2011 |
... as far as I know, that's it.
Something probably happened when Brits "exported" English to N.America while inhabiting the Northern American continent, and the gotten form remained there. While reforms on this point happened in GB/BE. The reform doesn't have to be official, but in this case most likely spontaneous/natural, as language has its own independent inner dynamics.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 17:53
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Thanks for that, Heinrich | Feb 6, 2011 |
I didn't know there was so much to it. Thank heavens nobody expects me to be able to master American English as well as British!
One line in the above link sums it all up nicely:
Weird, but that's English for you.
| | | | | End of irregular verbs? | Feb 6, 2011 |
On a side line, for years I have been noting the disappearance in both A & B English of the past tense of irregular verbs (or what were irregular verbs back in the day). Most striking is "dove" (past tense of dive). While early Hardy Boys books (1920s) have some uses of "dove", I don't think I've seen an instance of its use in well over thirty years. Even Clive Cussler, author of the Dirk Pitt maritime adventures, has been using "dived" exclusively for many years.
Comments?
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Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:53
French to English
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| gotten and dove | Feb 6, 2011 |
According to Chambers (UK) dictionary "gotten" is archaic, Scottish or US usage.
@ Richard: "dove" as the past tense of "dive" is also US according to the above dict. and actually sounds slightly comical to my UK ear.
Angela Dickson wrote: George Trail wrote:
At least, I keep hearing, "I've got it" when you should say "gotten" as the past participle. What makes you think "gotten" "should" be the past participle of get? Who do you think makes these rules? It is a standard past participle in American English, but barely exists in the UK. This is a descriptive fact that can account for your observation, but it doesn't account for your strange edict.
Scandiavian folklore comes to mind.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 18:53
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Probably newer form | Feb 6, 2011 |
RichardDeegan wrote:
On a side line, for years I have been noting the disappearance in both A & B English of the past tense of irregular verbs (or what were irregular verbs back in the day). Most striking is "dove" (past tense of dive). While early Hardy Boys books (1920s) have some uses of "dove", I don't think I've seen an instance of its use in well over thirty years. Even Clive Cussler, author of the Dirk Pitt maritime adventures, has been using "dived" exclusively for many years.
Comments?
If you noticed a greater tendency for "dived" in the recent past then it might be chronologically a newer form, although this should be measured more precisely and more objectively by linguistic researchers.
Also, concerning the structure, older forms would usually not have the root changed, which happened here. It would be the opposite.
One another tendency in English is that the ambiguous words ( on any level) or those that can create ambiguity are gradually dropped out of usage ( if possible). Dove as a noun means something else ( the bird).
Of course, these are just some perceived and possible conclusions of mine.
[Edited at 2011-02-06 18:37 GMT]
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 09:53
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
RichardDeegan wrote:
On a side line, for years I have been noting the disappearance in both A & B English of the past tense of irregular verbs (or what were irregular verbs back in the day). Most striking is "dove" (past tense of dive). While early Hardy Boys books (1920s) have some uses of "dove", I don't think I've seen an instance of its use in well over thirty years. Even Clive Cussler, author of the Dirk Pitt maritime adventures, has been using "dived" exclusively for many years.
Comments?
I just told my American husband (Master's in English) and he is rolling on the floor with mirth.
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