| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Shall or Will - which to use? Thread poster: Paul Dixon
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Paul Dixon 
Brazil
Local time: 20:51
Portuguese to English
+ ...
I have just done a translation for an agency I work with, and I was asked to review my use of "shall", which in the client's view was "too informal". I have always considered "shall" to be the more formal of the two forms (shall x will), so I am wondering if this could be a case of difference in usage between UK and US English.
The sentence, as I wrote it, reads:
"XXX is a continuous project which *shall* permeate the activities of the XXX team in South America on a per... See more I have just done a translation for an agency I work with, and I was asked to review my use of "shall", which in the client's view was "too informal". I have always considered "shall" to be the more formal of the two forms (shall x will), so I am wondering if this could be a case of difference in usage between UK and US English.
The sentence, as I wrote it, reads:
"XXX is a continuous project which *shall* permeate the activities of the XXX team in South America on a permanent basis"
I have checked the use of "shall" in formal documents on the Internet and it seems to be quite commonplace:
"All FDA employees, other than representatives of the involved Center (and except those specifically designed otherwise), *shall* be available to advise and participate with the Office of the Commissioner in its functions relating to the hearing and the final decision."
(US Usage - Source: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalVeterinary/GuidanceComplianceEnforcement/PoliciesProceduresManual/ucm046893.pdf)
"If the head of the institution is also the Chairman of the Council of the School, the Academic Secretary *shall* decide who *shall* act as Head of the institution in the procedures to be followed. The Registrar or his or her Deputy *shall* act in the case of the Head of a Council Institution."
(UK Usage - Source : http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/offices/hr/policy/misconduct.html)
Another point: if I don't use "shall", which would be better, "which will permeate" or "which permeates"?
I know that the shall vs. will issue is one of the most controversial in English, so your comments shall (or will?) be welcome.
PAUL ▲ Collapse
| | | | Francisco Pavez (X)
Canada
Local time: 16:51
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Shall=Must, Will indicates future condition | Nov 18, 2010 |
The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) weigs in as:
1. MUST This word, or the terms "REQUIRED" or "SHALL", mean that the
definition is an absolute requirement of the specification.
2. MUST NOT This phrase, or the phrase "SHALL NOT", mean that the
definition is an absolute prohibition of the specif... See more The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) weigs in as:
1. MUST This word, or the terms "REQUIRED" or "SHALL", mean that the
definition is an absolute requirement of the specification.
2. MUST NOT This phrase, or the phrase "SHALL NOT", mean that the
definition is an absolute prohibition of the specification.
at: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt
This is the use I have alway seen in the EN-ES pair with SHALL as a requirement and WILL as the future tense of the action verb.
Hope it helps ▲ Collapse
| | | | | American English | Nov 18, 2010 |
Hi Paul,
According to the Chicago Manual of Style, one of the reference texts for writing/editing American English,
"Shall may be used instead of will, but in American English it typically appears only in first-person questions involving choice {Shall we go?} and in legal commands {the debtor shall pay within 30 days}. In most contexts, will is preferred."
(Chicago Manual of Style, 16th ed., chapter 5. 125 "Future Tense")
Personally, I stick with "s... See more Hi Paul,
According to the Chicago Manual of Style, one of the reference texts for writing/editing American English,
"Shall may be used instead of will, but in American English it typically appears only in first-person questions involving choice {Shall we go?} and in legal commands {the debtor shall pay within 30 days}. In most contexts, will is preferred."
(Chicago Manual of Style, 16th ed., chapter 5. 125 "Future Tense")
Personally, I stick with "shall" in contracts and the like. Sometimes I use "will" to make the text sound less repetitive or if "shall" sounds awkward in a particular sentence.
I think in the sentence you've provided, "shall" would be preferred if this is a term of a contract or similar. As a descriptive sentence, though, I would say "will".
Liz ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Shall we dance? | Nov 18, 2010 |
Hey Paul!
Agree with Liz
Personally, I stick with "shall" in contracts and the like. Sometimes I use "will" to make the text sound less repetitive or if "shall" sounds awkward in a particular sentence.
I think in the sentence you've provided, "shall" would be preferred if this is a term of a contract or similar. As a descriptive sentence, though, I would say "will".
If your client insists, I suggest you use 'will'....
... See more Hey Paul!
Agree with Liz
Personally, I stick with "shall" in contracts and the like. Sometimes I use "will" to make the text sound less repetitive or if "shall" sounds awkward in a particular sentence.
I think in the sentence you've provided, "shall" would be preferred if this is a term of a contract or similar. As a descriptive sentence, though, I would say "will".
If your client insists, I suggest you use 'will'....
Good Luck ▲ Collapse
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| Use shall if the sentence refers to an obligation or is used in a quasi legal way | Nov 18, 2010 |
In English commercial documentation such as Service Level Agreements, 'shall' is used for everything that basically refers in some way to a contractual obligation:
- the Supplier shall present the Client with quarterly reports on network performance
- hardware faults shall be rectified within 4 hours either by repairing or replacing the faulty part
etc.
If you were to use 'will' in these cases a sleaze-bag of a lawyer could argue that it indicated be... See more In English commercial documentation such as Service Level Agreements, 'shall' is used for everything that basically refers in some way to a contractual obligation:
- the Supplier shall present the Client with quarterly reports on network performance
- hardware faults shall be rectified within 4 hours either by repairing or replacing the faulty part
etc.
If you were to use 'will' in these cases a sleaze-bag of a lawyer could argue that it indicated best endeavours rather than a firm contractual commitment.
In general, shall is about something that is going to happen or should/ought to happen, whereas as 'will' is about things that you/someone wants to happen. But language, as you know, is a moving target and people these days use them interchangeably or just stick to 'will'.
Your client is dead wrong though to declare that 'shall' is less formal than 'will'.
NB: note the use of capitals in the first example above. These capitalised words would have been defined at the start of the contract and even if they weren't they are capitalised to indicate that you mean the specific supplier, client, service etc., that is the object of the contract.
Not sure how much of this would get a formal stamp of approval by Professors of English but it's the way the language is used in today's business world (in the UK). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:51
French to English
+ ...
| No single, uniuversally accepted convention | Nov 18, 2010 |
Steven Jefferson wrote:
If you were to use 'will' in these cases a sleaze-bag of a lawyer could argue that it indicated best endeavours rather than a firm contractual commitment.
There are various conventions for using will/shall, but as far as I'm aware there's no single, default convention that will be assumed (at least in UK law) if you don't specify how you're using them. So while there is general fear that some legal case may hinge on the use of will/shall, in practice I don't think it has ever happened or is likely to happen.
It's interesting that you mention service contracts-- in many IT contracts I've seen (in a former life I was a full-time programmer and had to deal with such things from time to time), the intended meaning of "shall" is specifically specifically defined.
In the absence of any other preference being expressed by a client, I would tend to restrict "shall" to its sense of "will have a duty/obligation to" (so for example, it would tend to translate French "devra"/"devront", but not any future tense in general), as others have already mentioned. This is ONE convention for the use of "shall" vs "will". But as I say, unless "shall" is actually defined in the contract, it's hard to see how a legal case could actually hinge on this usage in practice because other usages are also common.
Either in this use or as a future marker in general, I think the use of "shall" is somewhat archaic in British usage at least-- I wouldn't agree that it's informal.
[Edited at 2010-11-18 20:39 GMT]
| | | | Paul Dixon
Brazil
Local time: 20:51
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | More context | Nov 18, 2010 |
The document is not a contract, but rather a press release about a new business tool. The phrase with the "shall" refers to the intended function of this tool (also referred to as "project"). I shall (will) include more sections to help understanding, all references to the company are deleted.
"The XXX is a tool which is part of the YYYY Programme and seeks to design and also define the business model within the value curve that each customer represents. This makes the business mana... See more The document is not a contract, but rather a press release about a new business tool. The phrase with the "shall" refers to the intended function of this tool (also referred to as "project"). I shall (will) include more sections to help understanding, all references to the company are deleted.
"The XXX is a tool which is part of the YYYY Programme and seeks to design and also define the business model within the value curve that each customer represents. This makes the business management model clearer, and in addition the results are more aligned with the expectations in relation to each partner.
XXX is a continuous project which shall permeate the activities of the XXX team in South America on a permanent basis, always focused on customers. This is one of the ways of enhancing the commercial relationships, helping them to be even more successful - one of XXXX's global strategies." ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael McCann
Ireland
Local time: 00:51
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Paul,
In your text, "will" would have been the right choice not "shall", though that said, it is a borderline situation, as your text is descriptive of a future action with some degree of hoped-for compliance.
There is an inexact and informal use of "will" for everything nowadays. It is due to the fact that grammar is not taught as part of the English curriculum to any great degree of precision.
A future action where the doer has choice, with no attached ... See more Paul,
In your text, "will" would have been the right choice not "shall", though that said, it is a borderline situation, as your text is descriptive of a future action with some degree of hoped-for compliance.
There is an inexact and informal use of "will" for everything nowadays. It is due to the fact that grammar is not taught as part of the English curriculum to any great degree of precision.
A future action where the doer has choice, with no attached penalty, is as follows:
I shall
You will
He/She/It will
We shall
You/Ye will
They will
e.g. We shall go for a walk in park tomorrow, if it is fine. [i.e. there is a choice there, without any obligation on anyone.]
A future action where the does is obliged to comply, no room for doubt, with some for of attached penalty implied or suggested, otherwise called the legal future, is the reverse of the above:
I will
You shall
He/She/It shall
We will
You/Ye shall
They shall
e.g. the employee shall obey all the rules and regulations. [i.e. there is an obligation and there is no choice in the matter.
Note the difference:
The forecast says it will rain [no obligation on the weather to rain]
If you drink poison, you shall die [no room for doubt]. ▲ Collapse
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| I was on your side until I read | Nov 18, 2010 |
Paul Dixon wrote:
The document is not a contract, but rather a press release about a new business tool.
Although I totally disagree with your client's statement that "shall" is "too informal", in this context I cannot see how you can use "shall".
Press releases are promotional material - they are intended to sell. A term such as "shall", which indicate an obligation, a must, is therefore inappropriate. In your context, "will" as in "is/are intended to", is more relevant.
Edited for typos.
[Edited at 2010-11-18 21:47 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-11-18 21:50 GMT]
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:51
French to English
+ ...
| Difference in Irish/British usage? | Nov 18, 2010 |
InfoMarex wrote:
e.g. We shall go for a walk in park tomorrow, if it is fine. [i.e. there is a choice there, without any obligation on anyone.]
Maybe this is a English/Irish difference, but to me, using "shall" would just sound bizarre here; "We'll" is the form that I think English speakers would generally use, and if turned into a question it would become "Will we go...?".
InfoMarex wrote:
e.g. the employee shall obey all the rules and regulations. [i.e. there is an obligation and there is no choice in the matter.
Yes, this one works because "shall" is used in formal situations such as contracts to mean "will have a duty to". On the other hand, it doesn't usually depend on the person (so "you shall", "he shall" etc).
InfoMarex wrote:
Note the difference:
The forecast says it will rain [no obligation on the weather to rain]
If you drink poison, you shall die [no room for doubt].
I understand that commentators have invented distinctions such as this. I really wonder to what extent this reflects actual usage, though. I perceive a difference between "you'll die" and "you shall die" in that the latter expresses more of a warning, possibly a threat on the part of the speaker. But I'm not convinced English speakers would generally perceive it as implying more inevitability as such. Of course, that's just an informal observation-- I haven't actually surveyed a range of speakers.
| | | | Oliver Walter
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:51
German to English
+ ...
| Mainly agree with InfoMarex | Nov 18, 2010 |
I agree with InfoMarex except for his very last example. I went to school in England and we were taught English grammar then (over 40 years ago). The rule was: for simply expressing the future, "shall" in the first person (I/we shall), and "will" in the 2nd and 3rd persons; the converse for expressing determination or obligation (I/we will).
This is consistent with the use in requirement specifications in the electronics industry where I am working: "The power consumption shall be no more ... See more I agree with InfoMarex except for his very last example. I went to school in England and we were taught English grammar then (over 40 years ago). The rule was: for simply expressing the future, "shall" in the first person (I/we shall), and "will" in the 2nd and 3rd persons; the converse for expressing determination or obligation (I/we will).
This is consistent with the use in requirement specifications in the electronics industry where I am working: "The power consumption shall be no more than 150 W" (meaning that greater than 150 W is not acceptable); "The device will be used for continuous periods of up to 25 minutes" (information, not a requirement).
However (pace InfoMarex): I would normally write or say "If you drink poison, you will die" (not shall die) because it's a (conditional) statement of the future, a prediction.
However, if I were condemning Socrates (I'm not saying the condemnation was justified!), I would say "You shall drink hemlock and you shall die" (or perhaps "You shall drink hemlock and you will die"): "shall drink" because it's an instruction.
Oliver ▲ Collapse
| | | | Clive Phillips
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:51
Member (2009)
German to English
+ ...
| What does Gowers have to say? | Nov 18, 2010 |
Sir Ernest Gowers in "The Complete Plain Words" (1987 Penguin edition):
English text-books used to begin by stating the rule that to express the 'plain' future, "shall" is used in the first person and "will" in the second and third:
I shall go
You will go
He will go
and that if it is a matter not of plain future but of volition, permission or obligation it is the other way round:
I will go (I am determined to go, or I intend to go)
You s... See more Sir Ernest Gowers in "The Complete Plain Words" (1987 Penguin edition):
English text-books used to begin by stating the rule that to express the 'plain' future, "shall" is used in the first person and "will" in the second and third:
I shall go
You will go
He will go
and that if it is a matter not of plain future but of volition, permission or obligation it is the other way round:
I will go (I am determined to go, or I intend to go)
You shall go (You must go, or you are permitted to go)
He shall go (He must go, or he is permitted to go)
But the idiom of the Celts is different. They have never recognised 'I shall go'. For them 'I will go' is the plain future. The story is a very old one of the drowning Scot who was misunderstood by English onlookers and left to his fate because he cried, 'I will drown and nobody shall save me.'
American practice follows the Celtic, and in this matter, as in so many others, the English have taken to imitating the American.
...
In England "shall" continues to express the plain future for the first person, though it is frequently replaced by "will" or other verbs. "Shall" is also used for the first person for other meanings, particularly in questions:
Shall I send you both forms?
What shall we tell them?
In the first sentence, "will" cannot replace "shall", which expresses something like obligation. We might say for the first sentence 'Should I send you both forms?' or 'Would you like me to send you both forms?', and similar substitutes are possible for the second sentence.
Official writers who are accustomed to using "shall" in the first person should follow the traditional usage in their formal writing. Others need not feel guilty if they fail to do so.
"Shall" is still normal with the third person in legal or quasi-legal language to stipulate regulations or legal requirements:
The Underwriters shall in no case be bound to accept notice of any transfer of interest.
Every contract made by the Council which is estimated to exceed £15,000 in value or amount shall comply with these Standing Orders.
Otherwise the use of "shall" with the second or third person is old-fashioned:
You shall write exactly as I have set out in my last letter to you.
She shall receive her pension as soon as she has reached the age of 60.
In the first sentence, "must" would now be normal. In the second, "will" is possible, although perhaps a nearer equivalent is 'I shall arrange for her to receive her pension'. ▲ Collapse
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Tim Drayton
Cyprus
Local time: 02:51
Turkish to English
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| "shall" in legalese | Nov 19, 2010 |
In legal English, the verb "shall" is used in drafting legislation and contracts to impose a duty. So, to take the example given above:
"All FDA employees, other than representatives of the involved Center (and except those specifically designed otherwise), *shall* be available to advise and participate with the Office of the Commissioner in its functions relating to the hearing and the final decision."
the authority drafting this legislation is, in writing this sentenc... See more In legal English, the verb "shall" is used in drafting legislation and contracts to impose a duty. So, to take the example given above:
"All FDA employees, other than representatives of the involved Center (and except those specifically designed otherwise), *shall* be available to advise and participate with the Office of the Commissioner in its functions relating to the hearing and the final decision."
the authority drafting this legislation is, in writing this sentence, imposing the duty on all FDA employees to perform the actions described. Unless the context is a peice of legislation or a contract, and the text itself imposes a duty, it is actually wrong to use "shall" in this sense.
PS - This special usage of "shall" is neither formal nor informal, it belongs to a special register.
[Edited at 2010-11-19 08:09 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | maryblack
United States
Local time: 18:51
Member (2013)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Totally agree | Nov 19, 2010 |
Elizabeth Faracini wrote:
Hi Paul,
According to the Chicago Manual of Style, one of the reference texts for writing/editing American English,
"Shall may be used instead of will, but in American English it typically appears only in first-person questions involving choice {Shall we go?} and in legal commands {the debtor shall pay within 30 days}. In most contexts, will is preferred."
(Chicago Manual of Style, 16th ed., chapter 5. 125 "Future Tense")
Personally, I stick with "shall" in contracts and the like. Sometimes I use "will" to make the text sound less repetitive or if "shall" sounds awkward in a particular sentence.
I think in the sentence you've provided, "shall" would be preferred if this is a term of a contract or similar. As a descriptive sentence, though, I would say "will".
Liz
| | | | Tatty
Local time: 01:51
Spanish to English
+ ...
| The difference is really simple | Nov 19, 2010 |
The word "shall" exists in two different forms. 1. the tense 2. the modal form.
1. the tense. It has the same value as will (a spontaneous promise) but there is an element which is less certain, this is usually the time element. eg. I shall do a PHD - you fully intend to do a PHD but you don't know at what point of time in the future.
2. the modal form, as used in legal contracts. It is an obligations but what is important here is the source of the obligation. The sourc... See more The word "shall" exists in two different forms. 1. the tense 2. the modal form.
1. the tense. It has the same value as will (a spontaneous promise) but there is an element which is less certain, this is usually the time element. eg. I shall do a PHD - you fully intend to do a PHD but you don't know at what point of time in the future.
2. the modal form, as used in legal contracts. It is an obligations but what is important here is the source of the obligation. The source of the obligation is neither of the parties but the contract itself. BTW, shall and should have settled meanings in law, and these meanings have also received further endorsement from a ECJ ruling.
Therefore, in your translation, you have used "shall" in the first sense, which is wrong and does undermine the information your client is trying to convey. What's more will is not a better alternative as it too clashes with the first part of the sentence - a continuous project. You need to avoid all tenses: In these cases we uses phrases such as "is set to", "designed to", "is intended to". ▲ Collapse
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