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Release announcement: New KudoZ features
Thread poster: Enrique Cavalitto
Ralf Lemster
Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:35
English to German
+ ...
Phew... May 22, 2006

...thanks, Enrique!

Zohèr Bênz
 
writeaway
writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
Thank you for putting things in such a clear nutshell. Couldn't agree more. May 23, 2006

A Hayes wrote:

Deborah do Carmo wrote:

As a former member of the site once said, this site is increasingly playing to the lowest common denominator.

I really have to agree tonight - this is possibly one of the strongest indications to date that it's the case.

Yet one more ploy to draw the crowds, keep traffic numbers up and keep the trigger-happy sufferers of KudoZ-itis (who are either obviously not working at all or paying scant attention to the little work they do have) content, firing away with yet more inane answers to (often inane) questions......and now getting credit for it!

I can only echo other colleagues' misgivings. The "wait and see" approach is very tired with all due respect.

But then again who really cares as long as the cyber highway remains congested and pulls in the punters.....



I agree 100%.

Deborah do Carmo wrote:

Credit not in the sense of points but in the sense of recognition being given to people who provide what are often asinine answers off the top of their heads in that ego-inflated rush to be first to the finish line - there are so many cliques in some of the language pairs that getting two (three or four) peer agrees will not prove an obstacle. Birds of a feather and the like .....

Fear doesn't enter into the equation - I think if you read the thrust of what most people are saying tonight, it varies between slight irritation to outright disgust. I don't think any serious translator would "fear" this change, find it ridiculous certainly ....


Outright disgust on this side of the planet. No ‘fear,’ of course.

Deborah do Carmo wrote:
KudoZ works?


Nope.

No-one missed your point about interpreters, Henry. And you reinforced my original views when you tried to clarify it.

With all due respect, Henry, what is your objective? What exactly are you aiming at? As has been the case lately, you (or the moderators) ask for feedback and then go ahead with the original idea pretty much unchanged.

Do you really want a site full of amateurs, because that's clearly what's happening. The site is becoming increasingly cluttered and unprofessional.

If ProZ is truly concerned with quality, why does ProZ not listen to the comments and suggestions made by experienced professionals? Do you realise many professional translators have chosen not to say anything anymore, while others won’t renew their memberships, and others will simply leave?

It’s a shame. ProZ was a good idea originally. But over the last year or so it’s been ‘improving’ in the wrong direction.

[Edited at 2006-05-22 13:46]


For me this is a perfect summing up of things as they currently stand.

I also add my full support to the comments made by Good Words, Sarah, Mikhail, Maria, Matts, Prawi, Sormane, Deborah, Elena, María Leonor, Jennifer, Muriel and Paula.

Hopefully their intelligent, constructive comments won't fall on deaf ears.


Zohèr Bênz
 
Enrique Cavalitto
Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 13:35
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER
Objectives and attention to feedback May 23, 2006

A Hayes wrote:

With all due respect, Henry, what is your objective? What exactly are you aiming at? As has been the case lately, you (or the moderators) ask for feedback and then go ahead with the original idea pretty much unchanged.

Do you really want a site full of amateurs, because that's clearly what's happening. The site is becoming increasingly cluttered and unprofessional.

If ProZ is truly concerned with quality, why does ProZ not listen to the comments and suggestions made by experienced professionals? Do you realise many professional translators have chosen not to say anything anymore, while others won’t renew their memberships, and others will simply leave?

It’s a shame. ProZ was a good idea originally. But over the last year or so it’s been ‘improving’ in the wrong direction.


The objective of this new feature is to provide askers with a different option, where peer grading will make the selection for him/her. Some askers may find this option useful, some answerers and peer-graders may be willing to play along. Or maybe askers and/or answerers will not be interested and we will discontinue this feature. In both cases we all may learn something new.

We pay a lot of attention to feedback. In this particular case, based on your overall feedback, we decided to make these questions not-for-points and also to keep the answers in the database but out from the KOG. This are not irrelevant changes.

I honestly fail to see how the availability of an asker's option to formulate FVA questions that will award no KudoZ points to the selected answerer, nor will be shown in the KudoZ glossary is supposed to contribute to make the site “ full of amateurs ... cluttered and unprofessional”.

Regards,
Enrique


Zohèr Bênz
 
Mikhail Kropotov
Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:35
English to Russian
+ ...
In response to your ponderings May 23, 2006

Dear Enrique,

In response to your incredulity, may I define the one thing that we as members don't want to ever happen (and I don't think ProZ does, either)?

We don't want KudoZ to turn into a human translation service.

Whether the newest changes (as initially implemented) would move us closer to this goal remains a hypothetical question.

However, the feedback provided so far has clearly demonstrated the consensus point of view.
<
... See more
Dear Enrique,

In response to your incredulity, may I define the one thing that we as members don't want to ever happen (and I don't think ProZ does, either)?

We don't want KudoZ to turn into a human translation service.

Whether the newest changes (as initially implemented) would move us closer to this goal remains a hypothetical question.

However, the feedback provided so far has clearly demonstrated the consensus point of view.

Relieving askers from most of the responsibility for proper KudoZ interaction can only shift us closer to the dreaded destination outlined above.

Sincerely,
Mikhail
Collapse


Zohèr Bênz
 
Pablo Grosschmid
Pablo Grosschmid  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 17:35
English to Spanish
+ ...
In memoriam
refining the monster May 23, 2006

Suggestions for thought:

No grading possible before 24 hours.

Worth a test: FVAs (and bot grading) to answers having at least three agrees AND at least two agrees more than the "runner up".

Carrot AND stick: award negative points to any answer with two or more disagrees. This would make people think twice before shooting from the hip. It also could overcome the overall reluctane to disagree.

Happy KudoZ!


Zohèr Bênz
 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 12:35
SITE FOUNDER
Thanks, Pablo May 23, 2006

Pablo Grosschmid wrote:

Carrot AND stick

Interesting thought. I've taken note.


Zohèr Bênz
 
Gina W
Gina W
United States
Local time: 12:35
Member (2003)
French to English
These suggestions do NOT equal "Happy KudoZ". May 24, 2006

Pablo Grosschmid wrote:

Suggestions for thought:

No grading possible before 24 hours.

Worth a test: FVAs (and bot grading) to answers having at least three agrees AND at least two agrees more than the "runner up".

Carrot AND stick: award negative points to any answer with two or more disagrees. This would make people think twice before shooting from the hip. It also could overcome the overall reluctane to disagree.

Happy KudoZ!







I am totally against the no grading possible before 24 hours. If there is going to be a time constraint for that, make it something like 12 hours, with the suggestion of leaving it open for 24 hours. Not every question actually needs to be open for a full 24 hours.

I like the second suggestion, though.

The third suggestion sounds good, in theory, but two disagrees could be two self-important members who do not like an answerer. In which case, such a policy would discourage many people from answering and/or participating at all, and the result would be is that the "regulars" would seem to own the site even more. I don't believe that is the purpose of the site - I believe that this site endeavors to welcome new users and members, whether or not certain old-timers see fit to.


Zohèr Bênz
 
A Hayes (X)
A Hayes (X)
Australia
Local time: 02:35
accountability matters May 24, 2006

Enrique wrote:

The objective of this new feature is to provide askers with a different option...


Thanks for your response, Enrique. But (1) that was not the question, and (2) the question was addressed at Henry.

Enrique wrote:

I honestly fail to see how the availability of an asker's option to formulate FVA questions that will award no KudoZ points to the selected answerer, nor will be shown in the KudoZ glossary is supposed to contribute to make the site “ full of amateurs ... cluttered and unprofessional”.


What can I say? Look closer.

Obviously, Proz's policies are inconsitent/selective, not only when it comes to punitive measures and censorship, but also when responding to forum topics.

As for me, I give up.


Zohèr Bênz
 
Enrique Cavalitto
Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 13:35
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER
On questions and answers May 24, 2006

A Hayes wrote:

Enrique wrote:

The objective of this new feature is to provide askers with a different option...


Thanks for your response, Enrique. But (1) that was not the question, and (2) the question was addressed at Henry.


You asked Henry
a) What is his objective?
b) Why feedback is requested and then ignored?
c) If he really want a site full of amateurs (something you saw already happening, as in your view “The site is becoming increasingly cluttered and unprofessional.”?
d) Again, why does ProZ.com not listen to the comments and suggestions made by experienced professionals?
e) If he realizes that (in your view) many professional translators have chosen not to say anything anymore, while others won’t renew their memberships, and others will simply leave?

An my posting said

The objective of this new feature is to provide askers with a different option, where peer grading will make the selection for him/her. Some askers may find this option useful, some answerers and peer-graders may be willing to play along. Or maybe askers and/or answerers will not be interested and we will discontinue this feature. In both cases we all may learn something new.

We pay a lot of attention to feedback. In this particular case, based on your overall feedback, we decided to make these questions not-for-points and also to keep the answers in the database but out from the KOG. This are not irrelevant changes.

I honestly fail to see how the availability of an asker's option to formulate FVA questions that will award no KudoZ points to the selected answerer, nor will be shown in the KudoZ glossary is supposed to contribute to make the site “ full of amateurs ... cluttered and unprofessional”.


I believe my posting addresses your questions b), c) and d).

As for me answering your questions addressed to Henry, please note that you are posting in a public forum, where all site users (even I) have the right to express their opinions.

A Hayes wrote:
Obviously, Proz's policies are inconsitent/selective, not only when it comes to punitive measures and censorship, but also when responding to forum topics.


I really would like to know what you mean when you say that the site is inconsistent and selective when it comes to punitive measures and censorship. These are serious charges indeed.

Regards,
Enrique


Zohèr Bênz
 
Mikhail Kropotov
Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:35
English to Russian
+ ...
On selective treatment May 24, 2006

Hi Enrique,

Does it really take insults to get your attention (let alone Henry's) - as illustrated by A. Hayes' example?

I have added a number of posts here, and what do I get? Positive comments and agrees from peers, but nothing from site staff. Selective treatment, indeed.

Respectfully yours.

[Редактировалось 2006-05-24 13:44]


Zohèr Bênz
 
Enrique Cavalitto
Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 13:35
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER
We do listen to feedback May 24, 2006

Mikhail Kropotov wrote:

Does it really take insults to get your attention (let alone Henry's) - as illustrated by A. Hayes' example?

I have added a number of posts here, and what do I get? Positive comments and agrees from peers, but nothing from site staff. Selective treatment, indeed.


Dear Mikhail,

I assure you we read these postings with great interest. In fact the new First Validated Answer was modified so that (a) they assign no points and (b) their answers will not show in the KOG.

This was done in response to the concerns expressed here that (a) they would allow points abuse from KudoZ answerers and that (b) lower quality answers would deteriorate the KOG.

Of course the site reserves the right to make its own decission, but we do listen to feedback.

Kind regards,
Enrique


Zohèr Bênz
 
Mikhail Kropotov
Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:35
English to Russian
+ ...
How does that address what I've submitted? May 24, 2006

Thank you, Enrique,

Have you any comment about the notion of turning KudoZ into a human translation service?

Mikhail


Zohèr Bênz
 
Enrique Cavalitto
Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 13:35
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER
FVA and mission statement May 24, 2006

Mikhail Kropotov wrote:

Have you any comment about the notion of turning KudoZ into a human translation service?



Dear Mikhail,

Please let me quote ProZ.com Mission Statement


ProZ.com Mission Statement

ProZ.com's mission is to provide tools and opportunities that translators, translation companies, and others in the language industry use to:
1. network,
2. expand their businesses,
3. improve their work, and
4. have more fun



None of our main objectives is in line with turning ProZ.com into a human translation service.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but a human translation service means having employees who have a responsibility of translating for the service's customers in exchange of retribution.

We are offering now an alternative to askers to post questions whose answers will be selected by other users' peer-grading. These questions are shown to site users, who have the freedom to answer them or not, or to agree or disagree with the offered answers.

Site users have no obligation to answer or to grade, and no retribution is offered in exchange except the possibility of networking, of showing their knowledge (and in this way maybe expand their businesses), of improving their terminology abilities and probably of just having fun (the game part).

In this sense the FVA KudoZ are just like any other KudoZ.

Regards,
Enrique


Zohèr Bênz
 
Dyran Altenburg (X)
Dyran Altenburg (X)  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:35
English to Spanish
+ ...
Just to clarify May 24, 2006

Enrique wrote:
None of our main objectives is in line with turning ProZ.com into a human translation service.


Here's a yes or no question:

Has ProZ ever condoned/promoted (say, to boost hits/visits) the use of the phrase "free translations by professionals" or "free human translation" directed at the general public regarding this website?

--
Dyran


Zohèr Bênz
 
Mikhail Kropotov
Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:35
English to Russian
+ ...
Clarifying the issue May 24, 2006

Dear Dyran,

I don't know to whom you meant to address your question, but I believe that is a very narrow way of looking at the issue.

As I stated earlier, relieving the asker of any responsibility for the question (and answers) is in effect like offering a dictionary/translation service. The only difference is the presence of a limit of the number questions a user can submit per day. Is this a direction we want to follow?

Respectfully,
Mikhail


Zohèr Bênz
 
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