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Off topic: Beginner’s luck ???
Thread poster: Juliano Martins
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:12
Member (2004)
English to Italian
joking apart... Jul 30, 2008

I too would suggest concentrating on the English>Portuguese pair and take it from there...

 
Tina Vonhof (X)
Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 12:12
Dutch to English
+ ...
Deaf ears Jul 30, 2008

Viktoria Gimbe wrote:

The mere existence of this thread proves we are in big, BIG trouble! Nothing more to add - many colleagues have already said all I would have said had I picked up this thread earlier. Claudia Digel's first post expresses my thoughts particularly well.

The overly enthusiastic replies many colleagues - or should I say "colleagues"? - have posted are just plain SCARY!

[Edited at 2008-07-30 03:53]


I am totally with you Viktoria. It is very sad that all the good advice so many dedicated professionals have given here seems to be falling on deaf ears. In any case, I don't think his "beginners luck" will last very long.


 
Tina Vonhof (X)
Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 12:12
Dutch to English
+ ...
Good for you Jul 30, 2008

Katarzyna Altman wrote:

I myself would not feel up to taking on such vast amounts of work as a complete beginner in the translation business. I am halfway through my Master in Legal Translation (thank goodness for summer break, though it is spent reading laws and studying) and I cannot say I would feel extremely confident taking on a 10,000 word contract, no matter what the time frame would be. I guess it would be an ego boost to be offered such volumes of work so fast, but my gut instinct would be to take it slow and to build up one's capabilities.

As for translating into your non native languages, I would be too hesitant to do that; even with two native languages I only plan to translate into English, with the exception of eventually going between the two native ones.

Just a fellow newbie's point of view.



Katarzyna, good for you that you are taking it slow and preparing yourself thoroughly. You are doing everything right and I expect you will be a very good and successful translator. You are the kind of person who should be encouraged - good luck!


 
Viktoria Gimbe
Viktoria Gimbe  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 14:12
English to French
+ ...
Suggestions from an ex-newbie Jul 30, 2008

Well, for what it's worth at this point, here is what I would recommend you do, Juliano.

1. Do NOT quit your IT job. Even if you get paid for this huge translation job, even if you get awesome feedback on the work you've done, even if you will work on your profile to make it better, even if you drop some languages and focus on your native language, you WILL find it hard to get contracts. The contracts are NOT going to pour in like with this last job. You may have to live off of the
... See more
Well, for what it's worth at this point, here is what I would recommend you do, Juliano.

1. Do NOT quit your IT job. Even if you get paid for this huge translation job, even if you get awesome feedback on the work you've done, even if you will work on your profile to make it better, even if you drop some languages and focus on your native language, you WILL find it hard to get contracts. The contracts are NOT going to pour in like with this last job. You may have to live off of the money you just made (that is, IF you get paid) for a long time and at some point, you may find that if you don't have enough REGULAR clients, then USD 3000 per month once in a while is actually too little to subsist on.

2. If you really want to translate, find out if you have the talent for it to start with. This is something no-one has mentioned so far. What makes any of us think that Juliano would make a good translator, whether he takes language courses and/or translation studies or not? I've reviewed the work of people who have been translating for a much longer time than I have, and trust me, many of these people will NEVER be good translators (I mean, people who can provide translations of sufficient quality), even though they have degrees in translation, translate exclusively into their native language and are very, very passionate about translating.

How about you start off by checking how well you actually do in your native language, without even touching upon translation? First off, are you good at writing in Portuguese? Do you have a tendency to introduce typos, slang, incorrect punctuation, grammar errors and such when you write? I don't. The reason why I don't is not because I am a seasoned translator. I was already an above average writer before I even became interested in translation. I had a knack for writing. Of course, not all good translators were particularly good writers before they started translating - but I can say that those who got seriously interested in this profession were able to write clean text that reads well without any errors, before they even considered translating.

Check your grammar and spelling. There are free tools on the Web (exercises with corrections) for pretty much any language nowadays. See what your results are. Worse comes to worst, you can buy college grammar books that contain exercises with the corresponding correction sheets - I don't think it would be an unreasonable investment. See how well you do. If you are not able to get 98% of your sentences right, you should first sit down and polish your Portuguese before doing anything else. And this task alone takes time.

Once you feel you have a solid knowledge of grammar, spelling and typography, and you also feel that you don't need to open a dictionary each two minutes to know you are writing well, start writing things in Portuguese. In your case, you could write a few articles on fuzziology, perhaps with your father's help as a subject matter expert. You could also write a few articles on IT, since it is a field you know well. Then, have your friends and relatives read those and ask them for their feedback. Don't just ask them to tell you if you made any grammar or spelling errors - ask them if they understood well all of the information and if they felt that your text flowed, if it was easy to read. Ask them to be very honest and tell you about every tiny bit they had the smallest problem with. That will give you an idea whether you are an overall good writer.

If, after this exercise, you feel that you are not quite at the level you think you need to reach, then start reading professionally translated texts. Read a book in English and then read its Portuguese translation. Or read parallel texts that you know were translated professionally. You will be surprised at how much you can discover about translation - and how much you can learn.

3. Do NOT believe that passion can sit in for knowledge. When you tell your client that your translation may not be of professional quality, you really shouldn't be translating in the first place. In other words, there should be no telling your client that you are not entirely professional. At that stage, you shouldn't be translating for money - you should be doing translation exercises on your own. You should be studying.

When you say that you may not be professional but you are passionate, you make me want to scream. Do you think that if you translate a maintenance manual for a compressor and you make a mistake which then leads to a worker's finger getting cut off by a rotor blade, you can use the excuse "but I am passionate"? Do you think your passion will give that worker his finger back? I seriously doubt it...

4. STOP thinking that ProZ will provide you with regular work at great rates. STOP thinking that ProZ is the only place for work - it is a drop in the ocean. For now, your best use for ProZ is to read, read, read... Many people contribute to the forum, amongst whom there are many seasoned professionals whose advice can go much farther than anything you will learn at school. Open your eyes and soak in the information. Judging from your posts so far, your knowledge of translation and of the industry is very weak. You need to have a clearer picture of it all.

Do ask KudoZ questions. The answers to these will help you to learn a lot about terminology. Do not answer KudoZ questions just because you are passionate. KudoZ is not a tool to toot one's horn, to show that you are present and active, to pretend that you are an expert at anything. It is a tool to help other translators with terms that you know to be correct and to fit the context. It is a tool for professional translators to rely on. If they can't entirely rely on your answer to a term question, you are better off not posting an answer. KudoZ questions have already fallen victim to too many people who just wanted to prove they are better at this than others - and the quality of the KudoZ Online Glossary has suffered from it greatly, to a point where I sometimes do consult it to get a clue about something, but I don't use the terms in it because I fear they are not reliable. I only use it as a starting point to search for terms elsewhere. Please, do not add to the confusion that is already plaguing the KOG.

I am sure I have even more to tell you than this, but I think that what I have written already is a good starting point. To sum it up, you need to be excellent at Portuguese before even thinking about translation. You may end up finding out that translation is not for you. Then, you need to get to know the industry better, by reading some of the valuable information on this site - but please do broaden your horizons and look beyond this site. Way, way beyond. Practice on your own, not on genuine translation projects. Make friends with people who have a career going. Stop believing you can get rich by picking up jobs on ProZ - it's not going to happen and you will besides create problems for your clients and hurt your reputation.

If after all this, you still feel like translating, please, keep in mind that you always have to be professional, first and foremost. Passion, love of languages and wanting to make serious money only come after that. If you can't be professional, just don't touch it.

One last piece of advice: when you write in a translator forum, please write as if you were getting paid for it. Writing well should be a second nature. Clients also read this forum and they will judge you by the way you write. Always communicate professionally and you will come across as a professional.

All the best!

[Edited at 2008-07-30 18:09]
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Clare Barnes
Clare Barnes  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 19:12
Swedish to English
+ ...
Hear hear Viktoria Jul 30, 2008

... you did it again (writing an articulate, intelligent response, that is!). I sincerely hope that Juliano reads and absorbs everything you have just written - the point about writing well in your native language is particularly important and unfortunately often overlooked.

Best,

Clare


 
Nuno Quintas (X)
Nuno Quintas (X)
Portugal
Local time: 18:12
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Many thanks, Viktoria... Jul 30, 2008

... for an absolutely stunning, articulate reply.

I've been following this thread from the very beginning and you've included many of the things I've been reflecting about. Being passionate about something is one thing; taking on a job and working in an "almost" professional way is something completely different.

Writing well in your native language is something that cannot be stressed enough. I can't remember if anyone has mentioned this, but, Juliano, I also visited y
... See more
... for an absolutely stunning, articulate reply.

I've been following this thread from the very beginning and you've included many of the things I've been reflecting about. Being passionate about something is one thing; taking on a job and working in an "almost" professional way is something completely different.

Writing well in your native language is something that cannot be stressed enough. I can't remember if anyone has mentioned this, but, Juliano, I also visited your blog (the sample texts in your profile are, sorry to say it, absolutely dreadful) and, as a native speaker of Portuguese, I believe that you do have some potential; there were no spelling mistakes nor glaring errors.

But that is not enough. Try to hone your skills, for instance, in terms of syntax and punctuation. You seem to have a knack for overlong sentences, something which seldom works in Portuguese, and commas were frequently misused (instead of semi-colons, for instance). Try also to write in different styles, paying close attention to the ways you can shape a text depending on the subject area.

Remember: one is never perfect, but that doesn't mean one doesn't try to be. In translation as in any business, one is not "almost" professional. Either you are or you aren't. Period.

And read Viktoria's reply carefully . There are many gems there.
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Viktoria Gimbe
Viktoria Gimbe  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 14:12
English to French
+ ...
A shortcut to a better understanding of language in general Jul 30, 2008

I forgot to mention that, whatever you decide to do, Juliano, it can only help to buy a style guide and a typography manual.

I have the Little, Brown Compact Handbook that I used in college - I know, I know, it's not the best nor the most complete, but it still teaches you loads - and I read it time after time. No, I don't use it as the reference material it is meant to be - I read it like a book. Once in a while, I pull it out and read just a random page. Then, I try to put what I
... See more
I forgot to mention that, whatever you decide to do, Juliano, it can only help to buy a style guide and a typography manual.

I have the Little, Brown Compact Handbook that I used in college - I know, I know, it's not the best nor the most complete, but it still teaches you loads - and I read it time after time. No, I don't use it as the reference material it is meant to be - I read it like a book. Once in a while, I pull it out and read just a random page. Then, I try to put what I read to practice for a week or so, to polish my writing and also to refresh my memory. To give you an idea, this is what I have read recently:

- Using coordination to relate equal ideas (eliminating choppy sentences)

Wrong:
We should not rely so heavily on oil. Coal and uranium are also overused. We have a substantial energy resource in the moving waters of our rivers.

Right:
We should not rely so heavily on oil, coal and uranium, for we have a substantial energy resource in the moving waters of our rivers and streams.


- Slang (eliminating slang to make text more readable to any person)

Wrong:
Many students start out pretty together but then get weird.

Right:
Many students start out with clear goals but then lose their direction.


- Anticipate typical spelling problems (not mistaking one word for another)

meet vs. meat
fair vs. fare
passed vs. past


[Many translators still make these mistakes - practice makes perfect.]

A typography manual, to me, is something I can't live without as a translator. Don't get me wrong, I know my typography, but it is one of those exact sciences that comes with so many very subtle concepts and so many exceptions that you sometimes do need to look things up, just in case - and I sometimes do find that I did make a mistake and need to correct it.

A typography manual helps you to know, for instance, where you put the punctuation in sentences that contain quotes, in which cases you use capitals and lowercase (most English publications suffer from what I like to call the Capitals Syndrome), in which cases you would use digits versus spelling out numbers, etc.

Juliano, if you buy one of each and read them, you will learn a lot over a short time, and this will help you to master your native language faster. And they are both an excellent investment, because you WILL still use them when you start your professional career.

Do our Brazilian/Portuguese colleagues have any style guides and/or typography manuals to recommend?

Edit: I also wanted to add that I believe one can learn to translate by reviewing other people's work and also by translating something that one hasn't read in the target language.

Ask professional translators to send you translations they just finished (provided their clients don't mind) and read those translations carefully. Correct what you feel is wrong. Send your corrections back to the translators and ask to discuss them with them. This is very close to mentoring. By discussing examples, both you and your professional colleagues will learn.

Take a foreign-language text you like and translate it, without ever looking at the existing translation into your native language. Once you are done translating, reviewing, proofreading and polishing your translation, compare it to the existing translation. It is a humbling exercise. I have done this many times, just to see where I stand, and even after all this time, I end up telling myself that I still have much to learn. It is a great learning experience.

Have fun!

[Edited at 2008-07-30 17:58]
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Mervyn Henderson (X)
Mervyn Henderson (X)  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 19:12
Spanish to English
+ ...
Viktoria ... Jul 30, 2008

I think you must sleep like a veritable log after translating and writing small-novel size postings all day. If you do sleep, that is.

 
Viktoria Gimbe
Viktoria Gimbe  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 14:12
English to French
+ ...
@ Mervyn Jul 30, 2008

Or maybe I just dictate them... Mwaaahahahaha!

I really care about this topic, and while I have the nasty habit of writing long posts, I think it is great to add to the collective knowledge on this site. In this case in particular, there was absolutely no reason not to do it. I think that spending a hundred calories to help prevent someone from hitting a brick wall at full speed is worth it. And I am sure others will f
... See more
Or maybe I just dictate them... Mwaaahahahaha!

I really care about this topic, and while I have the nasty habit of writing long posts, I think it is great to add to the collective knowledge on this site. In this case in particular, there was absolutely no reason not to do it. I think that spending a hundred calories to help prevent someone from hitting a brick wall at full speed is worth it. And I am sure others will find this thread useful long after it goes inactive.
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Mervyn Henderson (X)
Mervyn Henderson (X)  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 19:12
Spanish to English
+ ...
No nastiness Jul 30, 2008

It's not a nasty habit. I'm impressed and amazed, that's all.

Bye now,


Mervyn


 
Luisa Ramos, CT
Luisa Ramos, CT  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 14:12
English to Spanish
Absolutely, Viktoria Jul 30, 2008

Every word you wrote is worth its weight in gold. Your advice will serve its purpose, just maybe not this time. Although our lucky colleague says he is thinking about everything written and every advice given, I still do not see him conceding the point.

 
Viktoria Gimbe
Viktoria Gimbe  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 14:12
English to French
+ ...
Thanks, Mervyn Jul 30, 2008

I'll take that as a compliment, then. And I humbly blush for a little while...

Take care!


 
Nuno Quintas (X)
Nuno Quintas (X)
Portugal
Local time: 18:12
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Punctuation guide Jul 30, 2008

Off the top of my head -- and because I mentioned punctuation in my previous post -- I always have this guide close at hand: Guia Alfabética de Pontuação, by Rodrigo de Sá Nogueira (originally published in 1974). Even though it's not widely known, it is considered one of the best in its area. It can and is indeed used by Brazilians as well. It's my own private Bible, especially for t... See more
Off the top of my head -- and because I mentioned punctuation in my previous post -- I always have this guide close at hand: Guia Alfabética de Pontuação, by Rodrigo de Sá Nogueira (originally published in 1974). Even though it's not widely known, it is considered one of the best in its area. It can and is indeed used by Brazilians as well. It's my own private Bible, especially for those people who keep saying -- at least in Portugal -- that "punctuation, especially commas, is something intuitive and not subject to any special rules". Well, think again.

[Edited at 2008-07-30 18:23]
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Juliano Martins
Juliano Martins  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 15:12
Member (2008)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
... Jul 30, 2008

I had some doubts if I had done the right thing posting this topic. In the end I’m happy because I’m getting so much help from you people, even from the wet blankets. There are lot of valuable suggestions in here. I hope to fulfill your expectations soon.

I’d like to thank Viktoria for her long post. Thank you for your time and dedication.


 
Daniel García
Daniel García
English to Spanish
+ ...
Which manual do you use? Jul 30, 2008


A typography manual, to me, is something I can't live without as a translator. Don't get me wrong, I know my typography, but it is one of those exact sciences that comes with so many very subtle concepts and so many exceptions that you sometimes do need to look things up, just in case - and I sometimes do find that I did make a mistake and need to correct it.

A typography manual helps you to know, for instance, where you put the punctuation in sentences that contain quotes, in which cases you use capitals and lowercase (most English publications suffer from what I like to call the Capitals Syndrome), in which cases you would use digits versus spelling out numbers, etc.


Hi, Viktoria,

Thanks a lot for such well-thought (and well-written) posts.

Your advice is very useful, even for experienced translators.

Can I be a bit cheeky and ask you which manuals do you use?

I would be interested on the English ones but I am sure that other colleagues would also be interested in knowing the ones you use for French.

Thanks!

Daniel


 
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